Tony Mowbray [threads merged]

Cheers swiss, so in a nutshell he is making the same errors at celtic that he was at WBA

 

Now not all of these things are down to Mogga personally, more the philosophy and setup, but these are the major things from his West Brom days - if you guys are experiencing any of these then he looks like he's making the same mistakes

Goalkeeper no longer commands his area
seems like defenders don't communicate
defending of set peices got worse (and we have a 6ft 7" CB)
attacking set peices was clueless (and we have a 6ft 7" CB)
Struggle against physical teams
No 'Leader of men' with the blood and guts attitude
Some strange tactics / substitutions
Peter Grant

 

The Wba chairman did not let mowbray strengthen the team when they reached the premier league, we all seen what that chairman was like when we where dealing with him. You are saying he doesnt Know what he is doing with the defence well he recognised that mcmanus and caldwell were not good enough for celtic and as far as im concerned he was trying his best to get the right players in jan. I cant wait for him to the defenders he wants he been unlucky hooiveld and unfortunate about the ramis deal.

 

Any chance you could expand on the reason you've listed Peter Grant?

 

I didn't get to see much of West Brom play but one thing noticeable was whenever the keeper had the ball Greening would go and take it off his toes or Robinson would do , but the build up started deep inside their own penalty area.. The one game I remember from TM's time at WBA was the previous season to the premier league campaign , the Portsmouth cup game for one where I thought WBA were outstanding (but ultimately they lost) and clearly playing a passing game that any manager would aspire to.. He hasn't got anything like that from any of his defenders since he's been at Celtic , only Caldwell would go and take the ball from Boruc but that would result in either a staright 40 yard punt up the park from him , or a bit of keep the ball around the back 4 for a while before being closed down and then the inevitable punt up the park while under pressure..
I think he will goto the same style as mentioned at West Brom with Hooiveld , or maybe even Rogne being the one to take the ball out of defence... We definately aren't replicating the WBA style yet , and the style isn't the main problem , more the personel with the basic errors costing us.. Teams know that a ball into our box is danger so they'll fire it in their at the first opportunity or hit it long and high down the wing for their one man to hold up while they get support into the box... Mowbray hasn't made us worse at the back as some claim but he hasn't got the continuing problem from the previous season sorted either.. We are still in transition..

Boruc hasn't been commanding his penalty box for 3 seasons..
We had problem with defenders taking the ball of each other , leaving balls to each other , and getting in each others way for the best part of three seasons.. It happenned with O'Dea and Kamara and then with O'Dea and Braffheid for the corner that led to the 4th goal on Saturday..
Our defence doesn't try to play it's way out of trouble and that's actually part of the problem in my opinion because I've been used to a so called no-nonsense approach at the back where as soon as we are under pressure in defence we just hoof it out the park which ever way we are facing conceding corner after corner when it wasn't neccessary , and defending corners being a noticeable weak point of ours makes it even more of a needless thing to concede..
TM has started to get rid of the hoofers and no doubt O'Dea and Loovens are under the microscope over the next few months..
We have had little threat from our defence at attacks.. Occasionaly We'll win a header or someone like Loovens will find space and put it in the net but the truth is , the defending we have seen over the last 18 months is more likely to see us score in our own penalty area as much as the oppositions..
Substitutions and tactics are the biggest criticism at the moment.. Right back to the moment he put Mcgeady on the park when we were already 3-0 up with a meaningless 20 minutes left of a cup game , only for Mcgeady to get halved by an SPL hatchet man , TM's decisions have been baffling to say the least..

We haven't had a leader since Neil Lennon a few seasons ago.. We have had wannabe hard men and nice guys wearing the arm band but not one who has stood up and got in the face of a ref or opponent when it's been required.. We are still waiting for a captain to emerge..

That's where we are..

 

A common mis-conseption, we are a club that spends within its means. Mowbray had money to spend and spent it (Mainly on underbelly signings), the other thing you forgot to mention is that Mogga was given the choice of using his transfer fund on a. low value/ free signings on big wages b. high value signings on lowers wages c. a mixture of both.

Mogga chose option b. and ended up buying players with 'potential', which basically means he was taking a gamle, some worked some failed.

As far as I can see mcmanus and Caldwell weren't good enough, but I don't see that he's replaced them with anything better so that has effectively ruined your defence for the rest of the season and given the advantage to the Huns. Would he have not been better to add the defenders he's bought to those 2 for the rest of the season, to get you through?

I can only go on what I've seen at wba, I'm not anti Mogga, I love his style of football, but regardless of club size etc, both were in the same situation - at celtic he is expect to challenge the top of the league when he came in to wba he was expected to challenge at the top of the championship. Both had comparible resources for the league they were in, and in both instance's he has been unable to get a defense to work.

I hope I'm proved wrong, and like you say, when he gets his own defenders in things will be better, but bear in mind one of his first defensive signing at the Albion was Shelton Martis............ so forgive me for being wary.

 

I sppose what I'm trying to put over to you guys is that Mogga will try and get his defenders to play out, its something as Albion fans we all bought into and also wanted because thats what many fans had grown up with in the days of cunningham, regis & batson.

but unless you sign real quality defenders you'll struggle to play the way Mogga wants, it was our biggest problem, even in the prem when you watched us the football was great and we always looked a fair threat going forward, but as a club we don't have 10-15m to spend on 2 CB's and ultimately that's what you need to be able to play the way Mogga wants.

I just wish he could find some middle ground in his 'Philosophy', because if he did you'd have yourself one * of a manager.

 

Only the supporters of Mowbray will bring up our injury problems.. The ones who are scathing of TM and blame him for everything , from not smiling to not wearing a tracksuit aren't too fussed about mentioning the injuries as that would contradict the point they make..

Nearly all our defense has been out injured at some point this year but moreso since the turn of the year when we've chucked away around 12 league points.. Caldwell , Loovens and McManus being the only consistent first choice 2 from 3 centre backs from August untill January.. Caldwell got sold and Mcmanus came in for him and got injured next game before going on loan.. Since Caldwell went to Wigan (which may have been a badly timed sale) we've had 18 year old Josh Thompson playing more games than any other CB with a mixture of O'Dea , Loovens , Rogne and Hooiveld taking the other slot when injury or lack of it permitted.. Loovens and Hooiveld will no doubt be TM's preffered partnership but having only played 54 minutes together it's not fair for people to write that off as a failure.. We are also still without Hinkel for the last month who may not have prevented many goals that we conceded but he does give us a bit more solidity at the back.. Left back also had it's problems with injury to Fox earlier this year and changes made by TM..

The jury should still be out..

 

because before he arrived on scene, we were playing v.good football, we he arrived we started playing how you guys are currently ie. you know you can do it but something isn't quite clicking.

 

Hmmmm.........that's the second time I've heard that now.

 

That's why it simply has to be a case of better defenders = better defensive displays and less goals conceded.. We aren't in the premiership (which actually makes this worse) playing against Rooney or Drogba or Torres closing down defenses at every opportunity.. We are struggling against Billy Mehmet , Michael Higdon , Kenny Miller and Colin Nish getting to the boucing ball first or simply holding the ball up untill they get support... That's why there has to be hope and belief that we can and WILL turn this round because if TM can't then it will be failure on a much greater scale at Celtic with the resources available , compared to what happenned to WBA in the premiership..

 

I hope he turns it around for guys,

just to put it into perspective we have near enough the same back 4 as under Mowbray, (if anything people would say slightly worse because of Paul Robinson being sold and us replacing him with Joe Mattock who's young but with potential.) and I can honestly say under the new management its like watching a different defence all together.

the difference with Di Matteo is its all about the result, there's a fear in the players by not getting the result. I think under Mowbray he would accept a loss if we'd played well, under Di Matteo you can see that a loss is unacceptable.

 

I suppose the fair way to judge Tony Mowbray against Roberto Di Matteo will hopefully come for you guys next season when your back in the premiership..

One criticism I had of TM in the premiership was his failure to use Kevin Phillips.. Something wasn't right there but TM comes across as a more than decent bloke that you'd hope every player would want to play for , which seems to be the case going by interviews that I've seen from Celtic players..

TM did try to replace both Caldwell and Mcmanus.. There was a deal for a Spaniard - Ramis which fell through at the very end of the transfer deadline due to agents demands.. From reports we were also in talks to get Sean St ledger right from the start of January and kept upping the offer but the asking price from his club (around £4m if newspapers are correct) meant TM switched to Ramis in the final few days..

 

I fully accept WBA's position in the football ladder, we're in the too good for the chapionship not good enough for the EPL bracket, but really, what resources are available to you?

As far as I have read and understand, Mogga's not going to have some multimillion pound war chest in the Summer, which suggests he'll be doing the same as he did at West brom, trying to find gems in Europe (The guy's he's been linked with for you were the ones he was trying to get for the albion with the exceptions of a couple).

Yes better defenders should equal better defensive performances, but it doesn't matter wether your playing against drogba or bob from the horse & Jockey pub, if the defender can't pass or doesn't have a footballing brain he'll struggle to play the way Mogga wants. Ths is the crux of the problem, Mogga doesn't ask his defenders to defend 1st play football second it tends to be the other way around.

Don't foget when Mogga led us in the Championship we were probably in a better situation than you player wise, in the sense that our defenders were classed as some of the best in the division, and still some of the defensive displays were shocking

 

Trust me Ramis would be the better choice, we were linked with him when Mogga was with us, along with and argentinian striker who plays for them, but the agents etc want too much then aswell. St Ledger is OK at CCC level, but I'd have doubts about him playing at European level etc.

 

Thanks swiss bolt from the future

I don't think anything will change under mowbray at all.

WBA fan telling you how it is with mowbray, SWISS your posts about what wba was like under mowbray are exactly the same as celtic at the moment

Only difference is theres a lot more expectation at celtic and i'm amazed he's got away with the results and performances this season.

SWISS, in your opinion will mowbray change his tactics under any circumstances when he realises they don't work in the SPL?

 

Simple answer......NO

He's a man of principle and you have to respect him for that, but in times like now it comes across as pig headed, stuborn and a little arrogant.

A lot of WBA fans wished he could have just flexed slightly on his 'Philosophy', because if he could win ugly on a rainy wednesday night away from home, and close out the 1-0 in an edgy home game he would be one * of a manager.

We were gutted because the season we got relegated along with this season the bottom half of the EPL has been at it poorest and it would have been the ideal time to consolidate and stay up, but he wouldn't budge - if only he'd gone to win ugly in a couple of games we'd still be there now.

I don't want my posts to come over as Mogga bashing, because I really enjoyed his time at WBA, but sometime you're too close to something to see the problems if that makes sense? and now he's gone you can kinda of see where he was going wrong.

 

All of them basically

 

Alot of fans like mowbray so much that they can't see these problems m8...

It really dosen't matter what happens they still make excuse after excuse and would quite happily see us lose a title to keep him, It's amazing how one manager can spring up the same problems at two different clubs even though we had such a different squad too you guys when he came here.

He has removed the essential mental toghness robson hartley caldwell JVOH mcdonald and has replaced them with foreigners with no idea how to win the SPL. up here teams just plant themselves infront of the goal against celtic and rangers and say come and brake us down and if you haven't got a core of players willing to take it upon themselves to take the game by the scruff of the neck and get the win at all costs then you won't win the title, it dosen't seem that mogga will give us these players because as you said they don't fit with his brand of football.

Rangers have boyd novo miller davis whittaker etc... All half decent players nowhere near the quality we have but yet they still beat teams that we don't, You have to ask yourself why? it's blatantly obvious the managers style of play dosen't work here.

I like mogga he's a great guy and in a different club would be a great manager but not for celtic and not for the SPL it just dosen't work. Now the way i see it there is nothing wrong with at the end of the season saying look it hasn't worked out tony lets cut our losses and move on.

 

No it hasn't worked yet, it's still a work in progress - rebuilding a team doesn't happen overnight and we're judging the team he's trying to build far too quickly.

For example, many have already judged Mowbrays defence & defensive tactics - yet two players he signed (Braafheid,Hooiveld) in the January window to help sort our our rotten defence, haven't even played together on a match day.


I'm backing Mowbray but I do realise he's made some mistakes along the way, both tactically and with the media. He's clearly already learned from his media mistakes & I'm backing him to do the same tactically.