Poor attendances suggest Celtic need Rangers

Johnny B Bad.... well written article and some good points made. If our attendances were so badly affected by the economic downturn why were the old rangers not hit to the same extent? did all clubs feel the same impact ?

i am sure it had some impact but our attendance could have been hurt by us not winning the title, poor football and lack of atmosphere. Falling attendances started around 2005... but i also noticed a big drop in 2009 season.

If this drop were across the country then it is a good point - and maybe some clubs hurt more than others due to work sector of their support. I don't think there is a single cause - people may be finding alternative things to do on the weekend and if the club continue to treat fans as nothing more than cash revenue while imposing new regulations then crowds will continue to fall.

nice research, thanks for posting

 

This is an awkward issue. If they had any dignity (a Rangers watchword over the years) they would pay the creditors as soon as cash flow allows, which it probably doesn’t at the moment.

As for the club and its fans thinking they are the same club. They are defiantly the same people and that’s what counts. The Old Firm rivalry will reform, almost exactly as it was before. The names Celtic and Rangers are nicknames not company names. The slightly different names of the old co and new co doesn’t matter, they will just be referred to as Rangers.

The real sticking point is the trophies won. It is my ambition to overhaul Rangers total of 54 top division titles eventually. The SFA have nothing to lose by saying they are the same club. UEFA don’t recognise such organisations as the same club. Derry City has two names on the UEFA coefficient, one old co and one new co.

I wonder what the big deal was about liquidation if they are the same club. Administration on 14 February 2012 brought chaos and mania to Scottish Football the likes of which will never be repeated. If they are the same club, liquidation should have been no big deal, just a way to duck out of paying debts. When Rangers enter the SPFL for the first time, there debts will be wiped and they will, eventually, be able to move forward.

 

The whole point of the post was to say that it will affect Celtic more than Rangers as a percentage of crowd reduction, although it obviously affected Rangers to some extent. The main point as why this was is reduced average catholic educational attainment and therefore work in the construction industry for non academic students is a popular route to earn a living. .

 

i miss having at least one viable opponent in the league capable of bringing decent talent to SPL games.

 

Never realised trophies were handed out at the start of a season.

Of course price tickets have got a helping hand in it. The club reduced the price for one match...a Tuesday night match...against Morton. Aye that will get the punters flowing in. The early round matches for the League Cup are usually always * - even when the filth were alive they were always lower, so that's a moot point. What about the price of tickets for the league matches for the rest of the season? I haven't seen them being reduced much, if anything at all. £29 (the last I heard on what the price of a league match ticket was) for a league game is far too high, especially when you consider who we play in the league, and if the club reduced the tickets to about the £20 mark I'm sure that would go a long way to helping attendances.

Also, it's obvious fans would flock to a game against Hun FC Mk II and it's self explanatory on why. There may be a lack of competition in the league and it's up to the other teams to raise their game and challenge us, but if people think that its really purely a lack of competition in the league as to why attendances are down then they're being a bit naive as it's a combination of things and not JUST lack of competition.

As has been said as well, even if Sevco were in the league, that wouldn't improve competition because this new club are a complete shadow of the dead club. They think they are a great side just because they are beating plumbers and brickies. The only thing that would improve if/when they are in the league is the attendance...not the competition.

 

I think there are a few issues at play, and I will in order of importance as to why I think crowds are so low:

1.) Sport without competition is worthless. This I believe is the biggest reason why people are losing interest. A two horse race is limited, but a one horse race isn't a race. It is just a horse prancing about.

This season Celtic were 1/40 to win the league and Hearts were 1/3 to be relegated. That is hardly an exciting set up for a league. When one team can spend more on one player to sit on their bench, than the combined transfers of every other team in the whole of Scotland, there is no competition. When they could literally afford to buy and sell most clubs in their own league many times over if they were allowed to, there is no competition. Sport needs a sense of competitiveness that our game does not offer and many fans will not sit and pay hundreds of pounds to want a near certainty play out every single year.

2.) The club knowingly prices out its local fan base. A quick walk around the local celtic-supporting areas by Celtic Park will tell you quite quickly that these areas are pretty poor, and people living there cannot afford £500-600 a year to watch their local team. The board of course know this but they keep the price inflated because they figure enough fans will bus in from wealthier parts of the country. Only these fans have stopped bothering as with so much football on the TV and the cost of travel, they cant be fussed either. If guys from the near-by areas of celtic park could afford to go I think there would easily be another 5k or so there every week.

3.) There is no sense of anticipation anymore (linked to point 1). Can anyone honestly say that they get excited about upcoming games like Partick Thistle at the weekend? I don't. Games no longer feel significant. The difference between winning and dropping points used to mean a lot because one result could be the difference between winning and losing the league. A few bad results would be a disaster. Now, we go to games knowing that a last minute equaliser either way doesn't mean anything really. Similarly, rather than hoping your nearest rivals lose, we are actually at the stage where most of us hope teams like Dundee Utd and Aberdeen keep winning, just to keep the league close for as long as possible.

4.) The loss of Rangers. I think in many ways this summarises the above 3 points. Fans will pay a premium to see big games and the old firm was a big game. Rangers offered competition (leaving aside the actual ethics involved), and that led to the feeling that every dropped point was significant. And there was a whole lot of banter and bragging rights that went along with that. There is no point in trying to deny that a home game against Motherwell fills you with the same level of excitement as an old firm game did. There is no point is denying that you get the same level of thrill scoring a last minute winner against Aberdeen to go 15 points ahead of them, compared to a last minute winner against Rangers.

Problem is, Rangers no longer exist in the way they used to. Drop the current Rangers in the SPFL tomorrow and they would be no bigger challenge than Motherwell are now. But then at least there would be a little excitement based on the assumption that in the future they will eventually likely be in a position to challenge again.

5.) The rise of the EPL and the bubble economy in the last decade. Both these have already been covered on here, but the last decade or so has not been in line with historic averages. Crowds peaked when people had money and the club were signing superstars. Arguably we are now just reverting back to our long term average crowd nearer to 30k than 50k. The rise of the EPL has also hit Scottish football, especially coupled with high ticket prices. A generation of football fan is now more accustomed to staying at home at watching the EPL on TV compared to going out to watch a team in Scotland. And when you consider the value of what they are buying, can you really blame them?


In conclusion there are many reasons for me and I think the Rangers one is one of the smallest reasons. Sadly, I cannot really see a fix for these issues other than the board lowering prices to recognise how the product on offer has worsened and what they are competing against. If they don't do this, and I don't think they will, then crowds will continue to dwindle and in 20 years time, we will have an entire generation of adults in Scotland who would have grown up watching Man Utd, Liverpool and Chelsea more than watching Celtic. And then there is really no going back.

 

Gloryhunters left in there droves under Mowbray. They've not deigned us with there presence since.

Recent attendances that have been highlighted and the full issue this has been brought up is for issues that are * all to do with football. Fans are sick of being treated like * and the attitude of the board towards us.

 

Have you any evidence to support your claim that Catholics are less successful academically? I fail to understand the analogy about football in Ireland.

 

I believe, in Scotland anyway, Catholic schools are lauded more for academics.

 

Sween

very good post.. one thing the club could do is discount season books or match day tickets dependent upon post-codes to help those living nearby. I think it would definitely put numbers on the gates

but maybe they are not the 'type' of supporter our club want to attract

 

I've been to Catholic and non-denominational (or Protestant) schools and I actually performed better academically at the former. The curricula are identical, with the exception of Religious Education, and there's no logical reason why the standard of teaching would be poorer at Catholic schools than at non-denominational schools in the same area.

Not sure how this has come up in a thread about attendances. Bit of a wild hypothesis. :smiley-laughing002:

 

I have nothing to offer but anecdotal evidence from my life’s experiences. Feel free to attempt to argue against it if you wish. I hope that it is not true, because as I said in my post, it could harm Celtic in the long term.

My analogy with football in Ireland is that the catholic and protestant populations of West Central Scotland have an image of Ireland that was either never true or is about 50 years out of date.

Rangers fans hold the classic image of the Irish as dirty, vermin, poverty stricken etc. While a few of these assertions is petty prejudice, there was something in the poverty stricken that has an analogy today of Eastern Europeans forcing down wages for the low paid, even though most of them have the best of intentions for themselves. Protestants of Scotland don’t seem to have realised that banking crises of no banking crises, Ireland has a per capita income far above that of Scotland.

As for the catholic population, they have an image of the Irish and themselves as warriors, fighting the good fight against a much more powerful establishment. I am not saying that the Irish descendants are not as intelligent. I am saying it is a mentality thing of “I won’t lower myself to play their game”. They don’t think that they will be allowed to get to the top of the tree and as a consequence don’t work as hard academically. Subconsciously the parents pass on this mentality from one generation to the next.

I happen to subscribe to the Billy McNeill theory that in the late 19th century and the 1st half of the 20th century Catholics were perhaps discriminated against in this manner, but I don’t think that this occurs anymore. While Billy was making an assertion about football, I believe that this could apply to West Central Scottish society as a whole.

 

Catholic private schools in England and in the United States have such a reputation yes. I think that is more to do with the private status than religious reasons. All private schools are beyond the reach of Local Education Authorities, who’s only goal for 50 years has been the indoctrination of socialism. These people need failing educational standards. If people were more educated there would not be a single socialist in the United Kingdom, such as their retarded intellectual theories.

Catholic schools in Scotland are comprehensives, completely in the grip of the Local Education Authorities.

I also find it hypocritical that the people who recently celebrated Nelson Mandela’s achievements can’t see the irony of apartheid in West Central Scotland separate schools, less severe than the South African admittedly, but the principle is the same.

Also, all non private schools exam results are bullshit. They are however, bullshit for everyone equally on average. So no-one complains, except higher educational establishments or employers who say British school-leavers can’t string a sentence together.

 

You may be correct in you assertions. I am referring to an average over many 100’s of thousands of people.. Individuals on both sides will confound these expectations. The logical reason is a mentality subconsciously inherited from the parents who inherited from their parents.

As for how it came up in thread about attendances. Follow the logic, Lehman Brothers Bank gees down on 15 September 2008, followed by worldwide recession. A big part of this is that people found it almost impossible to obtain a mortgage as banks tightened their balance sheets and sought to reduce risk, retarding demand for houses that used to be built by construction workers, and with the greatest respect the construction trades are a route for non academic people to make a living.

 

I think when people speak about the "glory hunter" issue it really speaks volumes about how little glory is left in Scottish football. That is to say, if 10 years ago you called someone a glory hunter because they didn't bother turning up to league-winning games, Scottish cup semi finals, and flag day, it wouldn't have made any sense. It would have been a contradiction in terms. Now being a glory hunter means turning up to 3 games a year in the champions league.

Maybe. But then they are not trying very hard to attract the "other type" either who will be sitting at home watching sky sports on their big tv with their kids rather than taking them to a game.

Blame it on my non-private, catholic school, education if you must, but I honestly have no idea what you are going on about!?

 

I am glad I'm not the only one Sween but then again I also went to a comprehensive and am also a believer in retarded intellectual theories such as Socialism.

 

We don't need the Huns. We need serious competition from someone, anyone!
Hearts, Dundee Utd, Aberdeen, Hibs.... if just one or two of those teams could get their * act together and their so-called fans bothered their arses to go to the matches and help towards funding a first team worth shouting about, then maybe people would shut the * up about those manky *.

 

Can someone summarise JBBs theory in one sentence, can't really get the connection.

 

Celtic have a wage bill of £40m, Rangers, it is conceivable in 5 years they could have a wage bill of about £22m to £25m. The 2nd highest wage bill in the SPFL is Aberdeen on £5m. Money doesn’t guarantee success in football, except if the gulf is this big. Challenge from another team NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Not this century or the next.