Lennon Calls For An End To Offensive Chanting

How many games have you attended this year? Probably not many.

 

So people shouldn't be singing The Flower Of Scotland anymore? You come up with terrible arguments.

 

Change the record please.....this post is about the same as every posts you put out last night.


And who exactly are you referring to with this sentence? Scottish media?

 

Well said.

 

I think this whole debate misses something important.

You WILL be forced to stop singing IRA songs. Fact. After this season it simply won't be allowed anymore.

Either accept it and sing something else (is it so hard to sing Up the Celts rather than Up the RA?) or get yourself banned, or the club fined/docked points. Because that's what will be coming soon.

No doubt people will say "Oh these songs aren't illegal they can't punish us." That's precisely what the huns said even as they were being dragged in front of UEFA for a third time.

Great deal of denial going on here.

 

People dont sing Flower a lot at club games anyway. Like all national anthems its appropriate at international matches and perhaps European games but they are kind of innapropriate at club games.

As for Flower. It is not the same. FLower is this countries national anthem. Its quite a different matter singing songs about a conflict in another country sung from the persepctive of sympathy for those who were on the opposite side from the UK. Rebel songs split people (as you can see on this thread) but the idea that FLower is in any way similar is just nonsense. I have never heard a single Scots object to Flower whether they are strong nationalists or the opposite. People in Scotland are not divided by a song about wars 700 years ago because it was pre-union and everyone in Scotland considers the song as sympathetic to our side. It doesnt divide opinion. Location, venue and audience is everything in terms of whether a song is appropriate or not. West-central Scotland is like a mini-northern Ireland in that it has two small but in your face completlely antagonistic subcultures (republican and loyalist/orange) obsessed with Irish history but looking at it from totally different stances. Both sides largely ignore Scottish issues and culture in favour of Irish republican and Ulster loyalist/orange culture respectively. Songs about the Irish conflict are therefore the most divisive thing that can be sung in that area. Irish rebel songs are by definition taking an anti-UK stance and do not belong in the UK except when sung in closed venues where everyone is like minded. Singing them at away grounds is just a nonsense and inflamitory. Its not appropriate because of the location. Irish rebel songs are fine everywhere but the UK.

 

Nonsense. The club has Irish not IRA roots. The club was founded for charity etc by Brother Walfrid and was associated with an Irish socialist nationalist politician who was by that time a known opponent of violent republicanism. The republican stuff was slowly added a lot later in the 20th century and only became a major feature in the 70s. That was 80 years, maybe 4 generations later than the founding of the club. The heavy focus on violent republicanism is alien to the original point of the club and is really a 4th generation Celtic support addition. Personally I think our founders, especially a man of * like Walfrid, would be shocked and dismayed that support of politics involving violence and killing.

PS Get shot of they trackies before you get to Uni:icon_mrgreen:

 

Good point and I will extend this to most people in the UK. Celtic fans in Scotland sometimes lose sight of just how much a minority thing being obsessed with Irish history is in the UK. It really just doesnt figure for most people. I once had a discussion with some non-tim mates about Irish history and politics and I soon realised they knew absolutely nothing about it. They thought that it was a north vs south war and didnt even know whether it was Dublin or Belfast that was in Northern Ireland. However, I dont blame them. I would say as a parallel. the average Irish Celtic supporters understanding of Scottish history is just as low.

Personally too I think Scottish Celtic supporters understanding of irish conflict is very very skewed (often taken only from politicised books and people) and lacking in real insight of the subtleties of the issue and tends to consist of a long list of past grievances of one side. That is not gaining understanding. That is 'nursing wrath to keep it warm' as Rabbie Burns once said.

 

He said we shouldn't be singing songs about war if the war that people are singing about is over.

The songs we sing are fine anyone who gets offended by The Boys Of The Old Brigade is a idiot who doesn't know what are songs are about. Just like anyone who gets offended by The Flower Of Scotland would be idiot.

I would love to know how many people out of the Rebel song haters on this site actually attend home
and away games often. Probably not many.

 

People are entitled to an opinion whether they go to the games or not, does my nut in when it is implied that the opinion of those who go to the games are more valued than those who don't go.

I don't think the rebel songs should be sung for one reason and one reason only - they divide our own support. When we follow Celtic we all only have one thing in common, our love of Celtic, anything else can polarise opinions and cause division.

There is nothing "wrong" with rebel songs but the divide our support and as such I think we would be better of without them at the game, sing them in the pubs and buses before and after the games.

On Sunday at the game the atmosphere was excellent, however, when a few people tried to start a couple of the rebels hardly anyone joined in yet when the non-rebels were sung the place was bouncing with more and more people participating.

Anything that divides the support should be stopped in my honest opinion, we are attacked from every side as it is without bickering amongst ourselves.

 

The point is this is Scotland and therefore people know a bit about Scottish history and dont get offended by Flower. People (not just Scots) dont tend to have knowledge of other countries history in any detail unless they have strong links with it. That will never change and all nations are guilty of this. The problem element tends to be uneducated anyway. We cant just ignore this and pretend we live in a country where people all experts on Irish history when we are deciding what songs will or will not be inflamitory. I think any song which mentions the words ira must be dropped. It is embarrising when you are sitting with non-tims and this blasts across the TV at away games.

Also, this old IRA and pira is a fake distinction. In fact some of the most hardline Irish republicans tend to agree that the distinction is exagerrated. They both used hit and run shootings, bombs, assassinations etc. Neither fought a conventional war of two armies lines up against each other. As far as I can see the only distinction was really that its longer ago and was less high tech. If anyone can justify this distinction I would be glad to hear about it but I think it is very exagerated. Bottom line is they were both anti-British forces who used guerrila/terrorist type techniques in the main.

 

I think there is a difference between wars where all Scots support one side and wars where nations and families and traditions are divided by it. Personally I dont think Flower really makes sense at the average SPL game but at least it is our national anthem and does not take sides or split Scots.

Like it or not there is a legacy of orange and green migrants from ireland bringing political traditions into the central belt of Scotland that means that songs taking one side in Irish history are hated by the other side. These orange-green mini Ulster subculture created a far far more bitter then any native Scottish divides. Scotland did have its own political divides that were nothing to do with Ireland (highland/lowland, Scots speaking/Gaelic, Jacobites etc) but that was all pretty much done and dusted over 250 years ago and everyone has accepted that the ballot box is the only way change will ever happen so there is no point in constantly wallowing in history

 

There's a few big differences mate. Both had a just cause though.

 

actually the issue of whether the songs are legal or not isn't as central to the issue as is sometimes portrayed. The club can autonomously decide to ban 'people acting in a manner the Club considers detrimental to the Club's interests' regardless of broader legal issues.

 

We all know who the real terrorist are. The British Army.

 

Spot on mate

When i was a teen standing in the jungle it was when the P-IRA campaign was taking the war to mainland UK ,,the newspaper headlines were screamin "murderers" whenever the IRA carried off an operation... so i thought to myself what am i actually singing about here? are they the murdering scum that every newspaper i read potrays them as? so what i did was i got myself educated on the Irish struggle..read tons & tons of books (from both sides & of course neutrals) & studied it in great detail

And i came to the decision that the IRA were fighting a just and noble cause yes they made mistakes & they werent perfect..but they where fighting for freedom & many great men & women were involved in the cause..theres far too many anti-rebels on here who are ignorant of what actually happened in Ireland using offensive words like "terrorists" & "murderers".


I dont get to as many games as i used to now cos im living in Ireland-roughly 4 or 5 a season- but i know that since wee fergus was here there isnt much rebels sung inside Celtic park anymore its away games that you hear them at.. well i for one am glad that we still have a suport who are politically savvy, who know that our club is MORE than just a football club ..who always support the underdogs in society.. & i hope we never ever lose our REBEL HEART.

tiocfaidh ar la.

 

They would need to ban thousands of paying die hard fans and the Hardcore of our support that attend away games. I can't see them doing that.

 

Some people are patronizing, would be a much better debate if they could cut it out.

Some people want to sing, some others don't. Why not live and let live?

 

Well noone is saying their cause was not just. Plenty would say their methods were wrong though. Plenty of Irish historians now think that the who way Ireland got its independence could have been done in a better way that would have avoided the need for partition.

Basically there was a choice. There either could be a smaller republic such as the present one that was full on with the Gaelic, catholic majority identity OR there could have been a united Ireland by making it more acceptable to northern people with a British identity by including it within the commonwealth. I personally dont care about symbols of sovereignty etc and would rather that there had been a united Ireland within the commonwealth (at least at first) if it saved all those lives and prevented partition. That would have probably happened if it had not been for the easter rising executions. That is just my opinion but I know its shared by most non-political historians these days.

 

Well, a few days ago you posted that Lennon would 'never' call for songs not to be sung, and you've already been proved wrong on that