just to put it out there

Pish. Nobody is accepting it just because it's Catholic. Not as far as I can see anyway.

It's a Catholic school so I see no reason why children who are baptised into the Catholic Church shouldn't be moved to the front of the queue if there is a lack of spaces at said school. If it was a Church of Scotland school then I would expect the same would be done for Protestants or if it was a Muslim school I would expect the same to be done for Muslim children. Not much point in it being a Catholic school if you're knowingly excluding Catholic children in favour of children from other religious denominations. That's my view anyway.

If it was a non dom standard school that was consistently hand picking Catholic children over children of other denominations then I would accept the discrimination accusation.

 

Above is my initial post that you responded to. I never denied that they didn't discriminate in favour of Catholics. They are after all Catholic schools

 

Of course they are. If this situation involved a school in a well-off area that was, for example, moving children to the head of the queue if their parents could provide evidence that both of them are employed and earn a certain amount there'd be screams of injustice and discrimination everywhere.

As it stands, because it's it's religion everyone's to accept it.

If the school itself and the parents of those who attend want to operate in that manner then they should run the school privately, completely independent of public funding.

When public funds are being used we shouldn't see any children being favoured or excluded based on religious grounds.

As someone said, let the Church pay for it if it matters so much to them.

The same is done for Muslims. I know you like to adopt a bit of a victim complex in discussions like this Marky, but my issue isn't with Catholic schools, it's with faith schools who want to operate under a different set of rules from other schools but still stick their hand out for public funding.

It shouldn't work that way.

Private schools up & down the country operate under their own admission policies, and that's perfectly fine because they're private. They abide by certain rules and laws and everything operates smoothly.

I don't see why religious schools should be allowed to operate under their own admission policies yet still qualify for public funding.

Maybe we should provide funding to the private schools that accept people from certain families and of certain social backgrounds as well, should we?

Or does it only apply to religion?

 

They're based on information provided by the Department of Education, Ofsted, and the General Teaching Council for Scotland. As I said, these sources reporting this information are hardly the "Champions of Catholicism"- I doubt their plucking this stuff out of thin air!

If that's your view, then as I mentioned before, I don't think we're too far apart. You've said that you don't want to see Catholic schools abolished- I agree. You've said that you wouldn't argue that Catholic schools aren't "top drawer" (speaking in general terms and on the whole I'd imagine)- again I agree. You've said that various other socioeconomic factors play a role in education- again I agree. And like you, I agree if there are admission policies which restricts a child's right to a Catholic education then that should be reviewed.

This is where I don't understand your point though. Which is it? If it is indeed common practice that Catholic schools carry out such admission policies on a regular basis then that would suggest that Catholic schools are successful everywhere, and that there is a demand for them. Now given that we know Catholic schools in the North of Ireland and Scotland tend to be located and serve the most underprivileged areas and communities that would suggest that Catholic schools (on the whole) are outperforming their counterparts and are proving to be popular regardless of location. On the other hand, if it's only common practice in certain schools in privileged areas then that would suggest we're only looking at a snapshot and not the bigger picture, as we know that on the whole Catholic schools in general are performing very successfully whether its in underprivileged parts of Belfast or privileged East Refrewshire.

But again, you seem to think that every Catholic school should be top of these leagues. That fails to take into account that these schools are ultimately in the minority and that we're talking about them in general terms.

 

Fair enough, like I said, I'd like to know exactly how they came to their conclusions, but I'm happy to accept the findings.

We're in agreement there by the looks of it.

My point is that although only the Catholic schools that see more applications than they can handle actually have to turn children away, that doesn't mean the discriminatory procedure isn't still there.

Sure, we won't see a fuss kicked up in an area where the supply of places meets (or exceeds) demand, simply because after the school has admitted those children who meet their criteria there are still places left.

But that doesn't remove from the fact that the procedure is still discriminatory, shouldn't be allowed when a school is under public funding from the taxpayer, and should be reviewed.

Not at all, I'm just saying that I find it peculiar that if Catholic schools are punching above their weight why there's so little represenation of them in the end of year top school lists is all.

You'd figure if they were doing so well we'd see more of them.

 

Already posted in this thread
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...thern-ireland-schools-at-alevel-34679570.html

I will copy and paste this time

Not a single non-Catholic school has made it into the top 11 in Northern Ireland for A-level results.

Today the Belfast Telegraph publishes its annual must-read guide for the performance of every post primary school in the province.


The league table for A-levels sat during the 2014/15 academic year reveals that Catholic schools have increased their lead, taking the top 11 spots. Last year four of the top six schools had been non-Catholic.
The top performing grammar was St Dominic's High in west Belfast, where 94.9% of pupils received three passes at A-level.
The top non-grammar was St Colm's High in Draperstown, where 88.1% achieved the top grades.

Whereas the top performing non-Catholic school was Friends in Lisburn (83.9%).
Troubled west Belfast secondary De La Salle performed well, coming 10th of the non-grammars with a pass rate of 66.7%, up 50 places from 115th the previous year.
These results have prompted the principal of one of the top performing Catholic schools to call for the Department of Education to examine what makes these institutions so successful and learn lessons from them.
Sean Rafferty, head of St Louis Grammar in Ballymena, said "If you take a look at the top 11 schools they are all faith-based, and I think that says it all."

He added: "It's a combination of community support and a buy-in from parents, whole ethos of acheivement, we don't accept second best and all the time strive for excellence.
"This is something which I think the Department of Education should be looking at, they should be asking what is the magic ingredient which is making all the top performing schools in Northern Ireland Catholic schools."
DUP education spokesman Peter Weir said lessons could be learned from Catholic schools. "While there is a very strong caveat to be made to the results, as some schools put in pupils for three A-levels and some for four, and some stagger entries while others don't, therefore you are not comparing like for like always, nevertheless there are important lessons to be learned," he said.
He added the main focus on educational underachievement should primarily be put on Protestant working class boys.
The performance of six grammars fell below the Northern Ireland average of 64.9%, including Royal Belfast Academical Institution (64.8%).
Principal Janet Williamson said she believed it did not reflect the true success of her pupils. The Department of Education said it did not endorse league tables as a "valid basis" for comparing schools.

 

Aye, but Northern Ireland doesn't really count :smiley-laughing002:

 

But are these admission policies in common practice and used regularly? If they are I think that's poor and disappointing to say the least- and should be reviewed. But it would also suggest that the success and popularity of Catholic schools is not limited to particular areas, and is a general success and popularity regardless of location.

If such policies are only limited to particular schools or areas and it's not common practice, then I think that's only giving a snapshot rather than a full picture. Although I must reiterate that I agree with you, even one school which operates such a policy is disappointing and should be looked into.

But when people say that Catholic schools outperform their counterparts, they don't mean that every Catholic school sits at the top of these leagues- above all alternatives. I don't think that anyone is suggesting all the best schools in Ireland and Britain are Catholic schools. I think most people can recognise that Catholic schools are in the minority, and that on the whole and in general terms they're outperforming their counterparts all things considered.

 

Did you see the links to articles highlighting the lengths that parents are going to in order to secure their child a place at these schools? I posted it a page or so back.

Why do you keep furthering your conversations with a "but" followed by the same stuff you've been saying about Catholic schools being a success? We know they do well, no one is arguing against that.

 

For English based/English born posters. Is this as big an issue in England?

 

I think they suggested there was a rise in parents having their children baptised to improve their chances of attending schools which use such policies. I'm not sure if it answered whether or not the admission policies themselves are common practice and regularly used though?

I'm only pointing out that I think that most people can recognise that (generally speaking) Catholic schools outperform their counterparts without needing every top position in every league to be taken by a Catholic school. Or for every Catholic school in Ireland and Britain to be above any and every other type of school.

 

Why would there be enough instances of parents doing this to warrant more than a few media reports though if the practice of asking for Baptismal certificates wasn't commonplace?

Even so, the prominence of the admission policy isn't the issue. The very fact that it exists is the issue. You've even admitted as much yourself!

Yes, but you keep pointing it out in replies to me, despite the fact that I'm not even debating that point! :smiley-laughing002:

 

No Schools should be closed, I don't believe in segregation. I went to a Catholic primary and secondary whilst Protestants, Muslims and Atheists were all enrolled. No sectarianism was present in fact secularism was consented in the majority when it came down to talking about history, politics and religion.

However I do believe that Catholic Schools, Protestant Schools and Muslim Schools or whatever should be paid by their Institutional Headquarters. I find it unacceptable that the state is required to pay for these institutions when the Vatican can without hesistation pay for the operations of my primary and secondary. This doesn't insinuate that it should be inclusive for Catholics for Catholic Schools only, if a Catholic, Protestant or Muslim wants to attend a Catholic School there religious ethnicity shouldn't exclude them from enrollment.

 

I made that point at the start of the thread, it seems to be only Scotland that has a big problem with Catholic schools

 

The payment is a very good point

 

What about Muslim ones?

 

No. There are plenty of St Whatever's schools down here.
And I don't think they bother massively about what religion a child is, if at all.
The few I know of personally are located in small villages and basically admit all the local children - Pakistani, Polish whatever they may be.
They'd be stupid to turn kids down and have them have to be taken 10 mile up the road to another school.
One in the town I live is situated within a 2 mile radius with 3 other primary school and is the only catholic school - they take local kids again not based on religion as far as I can tell.
I know the bursar in there quite well I may ask her when I see her next if she knows the policy.

 

I'd say if the church were paying for the school then only Catholics should be admitted.
There would be even more uproar.

 

What about them, do you know of any because i don't, but i do know there are Catholic schools in many countries round the world but it seems only to be an issue here, why is that do you think thats all im asking

 

Emphatically NO.