Independence and/or EU membership- your preference

Beautifully explained, far better than any inept clumsy effort i could muster. The last paragraph in particular is 100% how i feel.

 

Ideally - Scottish independence and leave the EU.

Scotland is a cowardly nation though,and will never,ever,choose to be independent.

 

Nice bait.....but.....

Cowardly is bombing women and children.

 

The definition of cowardly is 'lacking courage'.

 

It takes courage to bomb women and children..?

 

The Regime - "Scottish nationalists have found it difficult to answer the question: Why would you trade power in Westminster to be ruled by Brussels?"

No they haven't. It's clear to everyone that there are huge differences between the two in terms of perceived benefits and unwanted influence. I can't emphasize enough how different the situations are, and how lazy it is to follow the 'you don't like this union, therefore you can't like that union' line of thought. It's like leaving a relationship and the disgruntled partner assuming that because he/she left you, they don't want to be with anyone else. It's bizarre really, and worrying that fairly intelligent folk follow that line of thought with only a few months to go.

Supporting Scottish Independence from the rUK doesn't mean you are required to support the dissolution of all political/economic unions that Scotland are associated with. Just as being a British nationalist doesn't mean you are required to support all politcal/economic unions that the UK are associated with.

 

No that's not what I'm saying...that would be stupid.

I'm just pointing out that your definition of cowardly is incorrect.Again - the definition of 'cowardly' is 'lacking courage' - and that's exactly what Scotland didn't have enough of; hence cowardly Scotland will never be independent

 

Scotland isn't one entity. Scottish people voted no. People come and go, people develop. People change.

 

Thanks.

 

I'm sure plenty will give you the attention you are seeking...but....saying everyone in scotland is cowardly because some voted no is like me saying every one in america is like Donald Trump......a raving * moron.



bye now.

 

You make some really good points.

As you mentioned, law is extremely important. Let's not dress things up here, the EU has been used to bash Britain. In the 1970's, Britain believed she was in existential crisis due to economic turmoil and obsessions about national decline. Ted Heath and his cabinet saw Europe as the only option to remedy this situation. Noting our desperation, the continental powers set the entry requirements at an almost punitive level. Brussels would have legislative supremacy over Scots Law, and English and Welsh Law. No such law exists in Germany. German Federal Law has supremacy over EU law. Should you be a cynic you might believe this was designed to keep Britain forever away from European reigns of power.

Given how venerable the law is in England, I would be worried. English institutions have proved remarkably capable at protecting liberty. Personal freedom has a timeless political history, the Free-Born Englishman and all that. Depending on where you stand, I would be a little concerned about the erosion of those institutions that have enshrined liberty in English/British political culture, the High Court and Parliament. Personally, I am willing to make some sacrifices. We all place different values on different ideas. In your case you value liberty, self determination and the institutions that safe-guard them more than business.(If I have this wrong please correct me) On the other hand, I value business quite highly and I trust the European to get this right. From the Magna Carta it took 700 years to attain universal suffrage. Perhaps foolishly, I am willing to give them time, though I am suspicious of the EU Suprastate.

To coin a famous phrase, you wanna play blind man go walk with the shepherd, but my eyes are wide * open.

Hmmm, I see you went with the Union/breaking up with your burd political analysis analogy. That weighty bit of political thought must have come during that sacred intellectual moment between when you wipe your * and when you flush the toilet.

I'm glad you speak for everyone, or at least yo think you do, it shows a real confidence, even if it is a false one. Unfortunately, even this thread contradicts you. One third of voters want to leave the EU and the Union. Given that such a large proportion of nationalists want to leave that would indicate a lack of consensus. Intellectually Absurd said that his SNP student association could not reach agreement. Any awake observer can figure out why some Scottish nationalists want out. One, the power brokers in the EU are unelected; two, those people then pass laws which have supremacy over Scots Law; three, the unelected then impose austerity on countries whom have voted against cuts; four, the EU works on behest of big business, coercing countries to place Troika officials in their government; five, they intentionally use immigration to suppress working wages. As I say, it comes down to what people value individually; more than a few have connected the dots, however. There are clear parallels in the arguments.

TBF, It's unfair to compare Britain and the EU really; Britain is far more democratic. But that's another thing for another day.

 

Another great post, I find it hard to believe that you are actually pro-EU, as your posts do a great job of solidifying my position (I don't mean this in a condescending way either). I just value certain British institutions (the NHS being the main one, but other public services are at risk), democracy and privacy too much to support the EU. The ISDS scares me even more, I don't trust corporations who only have profits in their mind to have power over the people who didn't and would never elect them. I want to keep European jobs on European soil, and not see mass unemployment on a bigger scale because the labour standards and trade union rights are lower in America. I certainly don't trust immoral bankers free of restrictions neither. The arguments made by those who are pro-EU is that there are certain problems which need to be dealt with and tackled 'together,' one instance of this could be the refugee crisis, which was a * disaster and has only created friction and distrust between nations across Europe.

 

The latest polls suggest the stay side are in the lead but it is close so certainly there is obvious way this is going as of yet. Personally I have to admit I hope they vote themsleves out as I think they will just be shooting themselves in the foot and it will also more then likely lead to Scottish independence.

 

Shoot themselves in the foot? You mean protect certain institutions such as the NHS, retain democracy, freedom and privacy, keep the bankers in check, control our own borders, control our own economy, conduct our own trades, keep British jobs over here and avoid mass unemployment?

 

Britain's NHS can't survive staying in the European Union

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...nt-survive-staying-in-the-European-Union.html

 

Britain's trade to EU slumps: Major boost for the 'Leave' campaign as our exports outside Europe continue to soar

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ign-exports-outside-Europe-continue-soar.html

 

So after that bout of verbal diarrhea you come to the conclusion that you agree with what I said. :smiley-laughing002:

I'm not sure how to make this any simpler for you - judge each union on it's own merits/flaws and don't make the ridiculous assumption that because someone is in favour of one, they need to be in favour of the other.

 

In the interest of providing some balance here:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/21/brexit-could-cost-100bn-and-nearly-1m-jobs-cbi-warns

Leaving the European Union would cause a serious shock to the UK economy that could lead to 950,000 job losses and leave the average household £3,700 worse off by 2020, a report commissioned by the CBI business lobby group has warned.

In a stark warning, an analysis conducted by accountancy firm PricewaterhouseCoopers for the CBI said that Brexit could cost the UK economy £100bn – the equivalent of 5% of GDP – by 2020 and would cause long-lasting economic damage from which it would never recover.

Household incomes could be between £2,100 and £3,700 lower if Britain voted to leave the EU, while the UK’s unemployment rate, currently one of the lowest in the EU at 5.1%, would be between 2 and 3 percentage points higher, with 950,000 jobs potentially lost.

 

CBI are funded by the EU

 

Pro-EU camp admits it wants us to stay in Brussels to keep YOUR wages down

http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...n-Stronger-Europe-UKIP-wages-Brussels-Cameron

Our wages will rise, but it's not a good thing? hm..