Independence and/or EU membership- your preference

The European Union is an IGO. Leave it and you're independent. Why do you want to be ruled from Brussels and not Westminster? Independent countries don't get their waters robbed and get paid a pittance in return, independent countries don't bail out a currency which they aren't even involved with, independent countries can control who and who doesn't come into their country, above all though independent countries aren't ruled by an undemocratic, unelected secret club imposing all EU legislation and regulations. I'd say independence comes from deciding your own laws, conducting your own trades, imposing your own policies and electing your own people!

 

I might be stupid here Daibhi but I don't understand what your getting at?

:smiley-laughing002:

 

By 56 to 44, it's hardly conclusive anyway.

 

Aye, spell correct played havoc with that post! I've amended it! :smiley-laughing002:

 

Well that is your definition of independence, fair enough. However it might not be for some, certainly not for me. We're still a member of other I.G.O's and thus it means we aren't truly independent. We still have to abide by multiple rules across these I.G.Os and can't do as we please with alot.

Plus we do get our waters robbed anyway, seeing as Westminster pushed the maritime borders of England further up in the late 90's. :smiley-laughing002:

As I said the 100% independence thing is not correct. Plenty of arguments to be had though and there are pro's and con's but you can't say we will be 100% independent in the truest sense.

Not only that but if we go for a Norwegian style system then we will still have to take on E.U. legislation (not all of it mind), pay and have zero influence or representation.

I despise him, but Cameron got a good deal.

 

As an Irishman I'd almost rather be part of the UK than in the EU. Independence should mean complete and utter independence. It'd be incredibly stupid for Scotland to vote to leave the UK and then join the mess that is the EU.

 

:smiley-laughing002: Nooo, Out the EU and Sanders for me.

 

:smiley-laughing002:

Next place we'll see him is in the Celtic Park boardroom. He'll find a few like minded souls in there.

 

Have to say I agree.

 

No,but if we vote to get out and england votes out we are screwed....lets get one boot off our neck at a time.

There is also a huge difference in the control the EU has over a country than what control england has over scotland....no where near the same.

 

The misnomer that they are two of the same thing is genuinely just lazy and dumb.

My preference would be for an Independent Scotland in the EU, with the rUK not being in the EU. I would then enjoy the benefits of having financial service jobs flee north to escape the best part of a decade of uncertainty.

 

I would move in an instant to Ireland or Scotland if they were fully independent out of the EU. I do think that if England voted to leave the EU it would help the Scots who want to be out of the Brit Union as the Scotland out of Britain I think would be given a boost if the rest of us vote out EU so I'm hoping some of the SNP voters ignore their leaders and vote out the EU for that reason. I think there are those in the SNP that secretly want LEAVE to win as well.

 

How so? Do you think Scotland would have a bigger representation in the EU than they do in the UK?

 

Probably, loads of the SNP society in our uni want out. :smiley-laughing002:

 

I cant help but feel the clamour to get out is related (in part)to the immigrants trying to get in.

 

I totally agree. As a country we export far more per head of capita than the rest of the UK, so leaving the EU would hit us hardest, but staying in whilst independent allows us to enjoy unhindered trade routes, controlling our own taxation and spending powers and the stability that the EU brings in terms of travel and security.

Best of both worlds imo.

 

Scottish nationalists have found it difficult to answer the question: Why would you trade power in Westminster to be ruled by Brussels? For the most part this is due to many separatist being heavily influenced by anachronistic ideas of self-determination and sovereignty. It is no surprise to see that Scottish support for the EU has fallen recently.

You go tell that to Greece, Spain or the Irish. As a condition of there bailouts they underwent extreme austerity measures. Is the Irish situation at all democratic?

All of Ireland's financial budget decisions must first be cleared with the Troika. In fact, they go a long way to making decisions, Troika officials and economist are fully embedded in the Irish government. Ireland was forced to abolish the national minimum wage; it reduced the welfare state, with significant cuts in payment of child benefit, career's allowance and other cuts to vulnerable groups; means testing for benefit claimants became increasingly stringent. The Troika also forced through cuts in public services with loss of 30,000 jobs. According to Oxfam, this has resulted in an increase in suicide and alcoholism, mostly affecting youngsters between 18-25. All in all the Troika forced Ireland to make cuts of £30 billion.

This is why I can never take the nationalists seriously: they are too blinded by nationalism to see the big picture, too focused on sticking it to the man in England, not seeing what's going on across Europe. Apparently, Westminster is about big corporations corrupting politicians leading to us being unfairly treated. Tories are unfairly labelled as "scum" and "protectors of the rich" that are lording over us and abusing our sovereignty. "Oh no!! Its worse than that" they scream " they are trying to Americanize us, ARRGGHHHH!!" Yet here we are, quite happily saying the EU is better than Britain. Even though the Troika, the * TROIKA!! - the pinnacle and principle agent of global neoliberal capitalism - imposes its will and creates policies for Ireland, a country not 50 miles from Scotland. For some reason having financial officials from an international monetary organisation is far more palatable than a government at Westminster whom we vote for. * off and die, please.

Where would an independent Scotland go, what would it do in the current climate? Scotland's budget deficit is 10% of GDP, £15 billion. Huge, almost three times the size of Greece's deficit in 2014. Where would it go for its bailout? London? The Troika? Sorry, I trust England over the * IMF. Every day of the week. In Scotland we * about austerity what happens? Westminster devolves more powers and says "if you want to raise taxes, raise taxes". Ireland or Greece * about austerity, the EU say " you will cut your cloth or we will send you back to the political stone-age". I know what union I would rather be in. I'm grateful to every person who voted to stay in Britain.

What we need is Scotland in Britain in the EU, fighting against imposition and wielding its power effectively. Scotland, and democracy, is much safer in the UK fighting for an improved, more democratic EU. If Scotland voted for independence it would leave us open to becoming beholden to the IMF. * that horror show. * that to * *.No chance.

 

Great post. Agree what you said about Ireland, Spain and Greece. Greece especially right now is a province of Germany. It holds no power over its own borders or its economy.

But I don't agree with Britain being in the EU at all, Britain is losing its powers in the EU all the time, what power will it wield if they vote to stay in? There certainly wont be another vote, Britain is the last hurdle for the EU until Merkel's superstate can finally come to fruition. I seen somewhere that the EU already control the majority of the laws passed in the UK now, and they're controlling UK regulations more often than not as well. If you're ever in doubt about the U.S. and big business having its dirty mitts all over the EU and TTIP in particular, then have a look at this leaked document which shows that the US can dispute and amend EU regulations before elected European politicians can debate them. Scottish nationalists need to see the bigger picture if they think sovereignty is gained if they're not in a part of GB.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-in-eu-trade-deals-leak-reveals-a6937141.html

 

Anyone who thinks Scotland can effectively "wield it's power" in the EU by remaining part of the UK is deluded. We have no voice in Europe as things stand. The UK government - a government Scotland resoundingly rejected at the ballot box - speaks for us. That's not wielding power. That's being a silent, submissive partner.