did osama bin laden order the 9/11 attacks?

Batch_CFC · Jul 27, 2009

I think what caused the buildings to collapse was that they were not fire proofed.

The steel structure was not fireproof, so melted after a while in the heat and collapsed. The rooms were not fire proofed so fire spread from room to room and floor to floor aswell which would have speeded up the melting of the structure and the collapse.

After then a law came out that all public buildings have to bee fire proofed im sure, so that the fire will spread slower and the buildings will last longer in fires.

HunSkelper · Jul 27, 2009

Batch_CFC said: ↑

I think what caused the buildings to collapse was that they were not fire proofed.

The steel structure was not fireproof, so melted after a while in the heat and collapsed. The rooms were not fire proofed so fire spread from room to room and floor to floor aswell which would have speeded up the melting of the structure and the collapse.

After then a law came out that all public buildings have to bee fire proofed im sure, so that the fire will spread slower and the buildings will last longer in fires.
Click to expand...

One of the main conspiracy points is that

''steel wont melt''

but what they dont get is that it doesn't have to, the fire was almost 2000 degrees, it weakend the steel beams who already had their laterral supports sheared off and the central support columns were taken out by a big * plane.

littlekennie · Jul 27, 2009

is there not an underground or car park beneath as well coz one side of the marriott hotel collapsed when the top of the tower hit it and the other side stayed in tact because the reinforcment and repairs from the car bomb seen that in a programme it actually saved a fire crews lives

Batch_CFC · Jul 27, 2009

Aye the plane obviously done some damage, I dont think anyone should be shocked the a couple of high rise buildings collapsed when they were hit with planes. It's probably more likely to happen than not to happen.

DJ CJ · Jul 27, 2009

HunSkelper said: ↑

In every photo and every video, you can see columns far outpacing the collapse of the building. Not only are the columns falling faster than the building but they are also falling faster than the debris cloud which is ALSO falling faster than the building. This proves the buildings fell well below free fall speed. That is, unless the beams had a rocket pointed to the ground.
Just look at any video you like and watch the perimeter columns.
Deceptive videos stop the timer of the fall at 10:09 when only the perimeter column hits the ground and not the building itself. If you notice, the building just finishes disappearing behind the debris cloud which is still about 40 stories high.
Below is a more accurate graphic using a paper written by Dr. Frank Greening which can be found at: http://www.911myths.com/WTCREPORT.pdf
The paper takes the transfer of momentum into account. Like a billiard ball being hit by another on a pool table, each floor transferred its momentum to the next as represented below. The more weight, the less resistance each floor gave.

The time required to strip off a floor, according to Frank Greening, is a maximum of about 110 milliseconds = 0.110 seconds. It is rather the conservation of momentum that slowed the collapse together with a small additional time for the destruction of each floor.
Below are calculations from a physics blogger...
When I did the calculations, what I got for a thousand feet was about nine seconds- let's see,
d = 1/2at^2
so
t = (2d/a)^1/2
a is 9.8m/s^2 (acceleration of gravity at Earth's surface, according to Wikipedia), [He gives this reference so you can double check him.]
d is 417m (height of the World Trade Center towers, same source)
so
t = (834m/9.8m/s^2)^1/2 = 9.23s
OK, so how fast was it going? Easy enough,
v = at
v = (9.8m/s^2 x 9.23s) = 90.4m/s
So in the following second, it would have fallen about another hundred meters. That's almost a quarter of the height it already fell. And we haven't even made it to eleven seconds yet; it could have fallen more than twice its height in that additional four seconds. If the top fell freely, in 13.23 seconds it would have fallen about two and one-half times as far as it actually did fall in that time. So the collapse was at much less than free-fall rates.

Let's see:
KE = 1/2mv^2
The mass of the towers was about 450 million kg, according to this. Four sources, he has. I think that's pretty definitive. So now we can take the KE of the top floor, and divide by two- that will be the average of the top and bottom floors. Then we'll compare that to the KE of a floor in the middle, and if they're comparable, then we're good to go- take the KE of the top floor and divide by two and multiply by 110 stories. We'll also assume that the mass is evenly divided among the floors, and that they were loaded to perhaps half of their load rating of 100lbs/sqft. That would be
208ft x 208ft = 43,264sqft
50lbs/sqft * 43264sqft = 2,163,200lbs = 981,211kg
additional weight per floor. So the top floor would be
450,000,000 kg / 110 floors = 4,090,909 kg/floor
so the total mass would be
4,090,909 kg + 981,211 kg = 5,072,120 kg/floor
Now, the velocity at impact we figured above was
90.4m/s
so our
KE = (5,072,120kg x (90.4m/s)^2)/2 = 20,725,088,521J
So, divide by 2 and we get
10,362,544,260J
OK, now let's try a floor halfway up:
t = (2d/a)^1/2 = (417/9.8)^1/2 = 6.52s
v = at = 9.8*6.52 = 63.93m/s
KE = (mv^2)/2 = (5,072,120kg x (63.93m/s)^2)/2 = 10,363,863,011J
Hey, look at that! They're almost equal! That means we can just multiply that 10 billion Joules of energy by 110 floors and get the total, to a very good approximation. Let's see now, that's
110 floors * 10,362,544,260J (see, I'm being conservative, took the lower value)
= 1,139,879,868,600J
OK, now how much is 1.1 trillion joules in tons of TNT-equivalent? Let's see, now, a ton of TNT is 4,184,000,000J. So how many tons of TNT is 1,139,879,868,600J?
1,139,879,868,600J / 4,184,000,000J/t = 272t
Now, that's 272 tons of TNT, more or less; five hundred forty one-thousand-pound blockbuster bombs, more or less. That's over a quarter kiloton. We're talking about as much energy as a small nuclear weapon- and we've only calculated the kinetic energy of the falling building. We haven't added in the burning fuel, or the burning paper and cloth and wood and plastic, or the kinetic energy of impact of the plane (which, by the way, would have substantially turned to heat, and been put into the tower by the plane debris, that's another small nuclear weapon-equivalent) and we've got enough heat to melt the entire whole thing.

Remember, we haven't added the energy of four floors of burning wood, plastic, cloth and paper, at- let's be conservative, say half the weight is stuff like that and half is metal, so 25lbs/sqft? And then how about as much energy as the total collapse again, from the plane impact? And what about the energy from the burning fuel? You know, I'm betting we have a kiloton to play with here. I bet we have a twentieth of the energy that turned the entire city of Nagasaki into a flat burning plain with a hundred-foot hole surrounded by a mile of firestorm to work with. - Schneibster edited by Debunking 911
Let me make this clear, I don't assume to know what the ACTUAL fall time was. Anyone telling you they know is lying. The above calculation doesn't say that's the fall time. That was not its purpose. It's only a quick calculation which serves its purpose. To show that the buildings could have fallen within the time it did. It's absurd to suggest one can make simple calculations and know the exact fall time. You need a super computer with weeks of calculation to take into account the office debris, plumbing, ceiling tile etc.. etc... Was it 14 or was it 16? It doesn't matter to the point I'm making, which is the fall times are well within the possibility for normal collapse. Also, the collapse wasn't at free fall as conspiracy theorists suggest.
For more analysis of the building fall times, go to 911myths free fall page.
Please refer to Dr Frank Greening's paper for detailed calculations.
http://www.911myths.com/WTCREPORT.pdf
Italian debunker shows us more than 16 seconds to collapse. That's almost twice free fall speed from the 110th floor.

One of the more absurd arguments is the idea that there was a "Pyroclastic flow" during the collapse. This is easily debunked. You will note not one person was poached at ground zero. Pyroclastic flows are a minimum of 100C, or 212F.

The gas is usually at a temperature of 100-800 degrees Celsius. The flows normally hug the ground and travel downhill under gravity, their speed depending upon the gradient of the slope and the size of the flow.
Pyroclastic flow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not ONE person, even the ones trapped INSIDE the towers, complained of dusty air burning their skin. Trees were left green next to the towers. Paper floated around ground zero without being burned.
When I brought this up to one conspiracy theorist, he produced some photos showing burning cars and such. Yet I easily found photos which show their photo was being taken out of context.

Are the cars, papers and trees in this photo made of asbestos except for the ones on fire? If you think there was a pyroclastic flow and photos of fires at ground zero is your proof then that's exactly what you must think.
It's obvious that the collapse rained paper on fire and even hot steel which could easily explain the spotty fires. Unless the pyroclastic flow hopped from one place to another.
Critical thinking skills will tell the average person there was NO pyroclastic flow but since this was brought up by a "scholar," thinking seems to be optional.
What really makes this argument absurd is the amount of explosives needed to turn that much concrete into dust. (We are only talking about 10% of the total concrete in the building anyway. There was a massive amount of gypsum as well, which conspiracy theorists would like you to forget.) The argument is the pyroclastic flow (which there is no evidence of) was created by explosives. (Some have suggested an absurd amount of thermite) If the incredible amount of POTENTIAL ENERGY (Energy the building had just standing there due to the stored energy of lifting the steel into place.) which converted to Kinetic energy (as it collapsed) is not enough to create the dust cloud, then the assumption is explosives must have created it. How much? And why would they overload the building with powerful explosives? Why put more than would be needed to cut the steel? Why put enough to cut the steel AND create a pyro show? As you can see above, the collapse released enough energy to equal 272 TONS of TNT. Why wouldn't this amount of energy be enough to cut the steel connections AND create some dust as the floors impacted each other 110 times per building?
More on the pulverization of concrete
Another absurd straw man is that they say Greening is saying the collapse weakened the steel. Nowhere in Greening's paper does it say the collapse "weakened" the steel. The massive potential energy converted to kinetic energy in the collapse and was MORE than enough to destroy the connections. No "weakening" of steel needed. The only weakening was on the fire floors which had its fireproofing blown off. This has NOTHING to do with Greening's paper.
Reader contribution:
Just a few numbers that make 9/11 conspiracies nearly impossible:

J.L. Hudson’s in Detroit, Michigan, the tallest building ever razed, was 439 ft. (26 stories)
ImplosionWorld.com
WTC 7 was 570 ft. (47 stories) 1.3 times the height of the J.L. Hudson. 7 World Trade Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WTC 1/2 was 1,368 ft. (110 stories) 3.12 times the height of J.L. Hudson.
1 World Trade Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
World Trade Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So, on 9/11, three buildings were razed with perfect precision. One was 131 ft. taller than the record tower and the other two (minus cell phone antennas) were 929 ft. taller than the record holder.
The Hudson Building “It took us 24 days with 12 people doing nothing but loading explosives…” James Santoro – Controlled Demolition Incorporated"
US History Videos - American History Timeline - History.com
Even according to the Loose Change guys, the heightened security and bomb-sniffing dogs had only been lifted for 5 days.

Of course, the construction is different and the towers would need less explosives if they were the same height. However, the towers were much taller and had more columns to cut as a result. Even if they did have the same amount of columns it would still take over 72 days with 12 people doing nothing but loading explosives. That's just one building. Add the second tower and WTC7 and you see where this is going. It quickly becomes absurd. As if this absurdly complex plan was the ONLY way to scare Americans.
Click to expand...

I assume you were good at physics when you you were at school mate

celtic20083 · Jul 28, 2009

NEW YORK (CNN) -- Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle and his flight instructor were killed Wednesday when the 34-year-old ballplayer's plane crashed into a high-rise apartment building in New York, city and baseball team officials said.
No residents at the Belaire Condominiums at 524 E. 72nd Street near the East River were injured.
Two bodies and Lidle's passport were found in the street, responders told CNN.(Watch witness accounts of cascading fireballs and a plane split in half -- 1:58 )
"It looks like the plane just flew into someone's living room," witness Sarah Steiner told CNN.
There was a distress call from the pilot involving a problem with fuel, government sources close to the investigation told CNN. (Watch the NTSB comment on investigation -- 3:00 )
The Cirrus Design SR-20 four seater originated from Teterboro Regional Airport in New Jersey at about 2:30 p.m. and was on radar as it circled the Statue of Liberty and headed north up the East River, according to New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg.
But radar lost contact, he said, when the plane reached the 59th Street Bridge.
"That's about what you'd expect if the plane started to descend," he said. "We have no idea how it ended up on 72nd Street. The [National Transportation Safety Board] will have to figure that out."
Twelve minutes after the plane left Teterboro, the New York Fire Department was notified of the crash. The plane smacked the 39th and 40th floors of the Belaire condominium building, then crashed to the street below, setting fire to at least one unit in the building as well as burning on the ground.(Thoughts turn to 9/11 in crash confusion)
Henry Neimark, a witness on the ground who is a pilot, said the plane was flying erratically before the crash, and it appeared the pilot lost control.
"I saw an airplane banking very, very steeply," he said. "I said to myself, 'That's very odd for a light plane like that.'"
Neimark said he then saw a "huge ball of fire."(Watch the orange flames ravage the apartment -- 1:50)
Bloomberg said two people were in one of the apartments when the plane struck, and both ran out into the hallway. They, along with others in the building, were all safely evacuated, he said.
The fire department said the fire was out by about 4:30 p.m.
Eleven firefighters and five civilians were slightly injured in the accident on Manhattan's East Side, the mayor said.
More than 160 firefighters from 39 units responded to the four-alarm fire. It took them about 45 minutes to control the blaze that shot about 10 stories to the top of the building.
The building has 183 mainly two- and three-bedroom apartments valued at as much as $1.3 million.
Photos from a freelance photographer showed a wing and debris from the plane on the ground. An engine was found on one of the floors, Bloomberg said.
The NTSB had two investigators at the scene, and several more were coming, spokeswoman Debbie Hersman said at a news conference in Washington. She confirmed that the plane, with tail number N929CD, was registered to Lidle.
FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said the East River is in a corridor governed by Visual Flight Rules, meaning that pilots must stay over the river and climb no higher than 1,100 feet. The pilot was not required to file a flight plan, she said.
Fears of terrorism prompt quick response

North American Aerospace Defense Command Admiral Tim Keating said NORAD had put fighter aircraft into the air over numerous U.S. cities as a precaution, but he didn't name the cities.(Watch why fighter jets were launched -- 1:26 )
NORAD did the same thing after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.
Once it was certain the incident was not a terrorist attack, NORAD called the jets back, Keating said.
The Federal Aviation Administration, also as a precaution, banned aircraft flying below 1,500 feet and within a mile of the building after the crash, said FAA spokeswoman Diane Spitaliere.
No timetable was provided on when the ban might be lifted. Emergency vehicles jammed several blocks of smoke-filled 72nd Street after the accident was reported.
"I just heard this huge, huge crash," said Tamer Faltos, who was a few buildings away when the plane crashed. "There were people screaming, a huge flame. In seconds the firefighters and the police were here, thank *."
Yanks haunted by plane crash history

Lidle is the second Yankee to die in the crash of a plane he owned. Catcher Thurman Munson, the 1976 American League MVP and a 9-year veteran of the Yankees, was killed on August 2, 1979, in a crash as he practiced takeoffs and landings in his new Cessna Citation jet at the Akron-Canton [Ohio] Airport.
In a prepared statement, Yankees owner George Steinbrenner said, "This is a terrible and shocking tragedy that has stunned the entire Yankees organization. I offer my deep condolences and prayers to his wife, Melanie, and son, Christopher, on their enormous loss." (Who was Lidle?)
Lidle is from Hollywood, California, and played for a decade in the minor leagues, said Sports Illustrated senior writer Tom Verducci.
The pitcher was 4-3 for the Yankees, who acquired the right-handed pitcher in a trade with the Philadelphia Phillies on July 30.
He pitched 1 1/3 innings and gave up three runs in the Yankees' season-ending loss to Detroit in the American League Division Series on Saturday.
Lidle, a nine-year veteran, was in the last year of his contract.
In his short time with the Yankees, Lidle has gained a reputation as a guy who "always had a smile on his face," said Verducci. Around the clubhouse, he "treated everyone as an equal."
Lidle was passionate about learning how to fly, the writer said. The ballplayer spent his off days logging time in the air. (Watch Lidle do what he loved -- 3:10)
"[It was] only recently that [Lidle] made the money he needed to go out and buy a plane," said Verducci.
Click to expand...

That didn't collapse

HunSkelper · Jul 28, 2009

DJ CJ said: ↑

I assume you were good at physics when you you were at school mate
Click to expand...

Im a structural engineer mate, ive done those calculations twice and they conclusivley prove that the building fell below free fall speed. Which means the consiracy theorists are LYING, unless they also think they US changed the laws of physics to prove themselves right.

hoops daft · Jul 28, 2009

HunSkelper said: ↑

Im a structural engineer mate, ive done those calculations twice and they conclusivley prove that the building fell below free fall speed. Which means the consiracy theorists are LYING, unless they also think they US changed the laws of physics to prove themselves right.
Click to expand...

thank * for our resident engineer