Benefit cheats

To be fair Rob, your argument seems to be "if I were to steal I would make more money". I totally appreciate that you are being honest where no doubt others are not, but that isnt really a case of the HMRC showing you "the middle finger". They have made rules - it is just some people are breaking the law.

 

i think there is a greater need to create jobs for the unemployed rather than helping with childcare so both parents can go out to work.

 

You're not alone mate. Me and my other half are the same.

We're being honest, only to be told we will get absolutely no help with childcare to allow my partner to work.

Like i have stated earlier, if heating our home, running our car, income tax, VAT, and childcare costs were not as high as they were, we would be able to manage. As it stands, they are crippling and show no signs of getting any cheaper. We barely manage to support ourselves as it is.

Our pregnancy was not planned but we are happy and excited. This happiness is only overshadowed by the dread at how we are going to afford to get by. How we will be able to try and provide best for our child. Not knowing if my partner will be able to return to work. The realisation that we will most likely end up in pretty deep debt to keep us afloat.

Again, if living costs were not so high, we would be fine.

As a taxpayer since i left school at 17, i have worked non stop. I have paid tax non stop. We are honest. We have never and would never cheat the benefits system. We really do not think that asking for SOME help with childcare is much to ask. ESPECIALLY when i know people who have never worked at all, not a single day, who are living more comfortably than we are and completely free of the stresses we now face.

I'm not saying we deserve more than anyone else. We aren't looking for a luxury but surely hard working people who don't quite make enough to pay for full time child care are entitled to a little helping hand?

As it stands, we face a choice. My partner works, knowing that around 90% of her wage will go on childcare costs or she gives it up and we attempt to live on my wage whilst she stays at home with the baby. Either way we lose. Even if the government could pay half the childcare, that would be enough to make it worth her while working. Instead, the road we are being pushed down is for her not to work. How can this be a good thing?

 

Two wrongs don't make a right mate. I've worked all my days and so has my wife, even though there have been plenty of times when I wish I could sit on my * and scratch it.

I have no issue when people get benefits who genuinely need it but for those who do the system why should I pay taxes to subsidise them. There are people other than bankers and the rich effected by benefit fraud.

 

There is a massive difference between tax "evasion" and tax "avoidance". The former will see you go to jail while the later is legal. The methods used to legally reduce you tax bill were agreed to by the government. Everyone can do it but not everyone knows how.

 

I work for the DWP and see , daily, the people on benefits that are being discussed here. The facts are, that the majority of people unemployed want to work. As with most things though, the media and such highlight the extreme end of people out of work and not wanting to work. The amount of fraud committed each year through benefit cheats is actually quite small as a % of the welfare system. Compare this to Tax avoidance or evasion, or creative bookkeeping from big business and its a drop in the ocean.

Most media though dont leap on business's who commit this fraud as its not reader friendly. The government dont do as much as they should, because quite often they are in cahoots with said business. A prime example is Philip Green, one of Britains most successful businessmen who has been an advisor to the Government. The same person has also been responsible for £100's of millions of pounds of tax avoidance yet this barely made a ripple in the news.

There are faults in the benefits system, no doubt about it, and there will always be people who scam the system, no matter what. Sadly we seem keen to not only punish the genuine dodgers, but also the honest people who are out of work due to circumstances.

Ultimately though, the best things the government could do to help people is to create wealth and employment in the country because at the moment there isnt enough work for everyone that is looking to get into work.

From next year the Universal Credit will come into force. A Tory benefit that has been acknowledge will make up to 300,000 people worse off straight away. Maybe that will make some people happy.

 

I was involved in a staff consultation for that two weeks ago. Complete cluster * waiting to happen.

 

That's a great post, well said man

 

As has been said countless times already, the constant cuts from the CONDEM coalition are proven to be not effective, there must be an alternative found. In my opinion what needs to happen is the government need to recoup the many many millions in taxes owed from big companies like Vodafone and Rangers who are unwilling to pay their fair share. Cutting the ludicrous and needless spending on nuclear arms wouldn't do any harm either! This money then needs to be invested into building and renovating schools and hospitals and building new council houses that have been needed since Thatcher sold off all the old ones.

This will create homes for people who badly need them, and jobs all over the country for both the manually and intellectually skilled prospective employee, which will as FATLAZYBHOY said on the last page will in turn inject more tax into the country, keeping the process going.

I also think that wages need to go up for the working class, minimum wage in particular. Inflation keeps going and going, but wages are not following suit, nowhere near it. It is becoming more and more difficult for people to simply survive, let alone try to better themselves or their situation. Lowering benefits is not the answer, as someone who was on the dole a few months ago, who was lucky enough to be able to live rent free and without food bills, I cannot imagine the £53 a week I got would have been able to support me as a single man, without the added stress of a child to worry about.

Something that I've read quite a few times in debates such as this is introducing a system where dole money is given for a set period of time, say six months, and then moving to vouchers for essentials, so things like drinking, smoking etc would be out. I'm not sure what to think about this to be honest, on the one hand if people are struggling, like the guys in this thread who are, they will accept any help they can get and it will give a boot up the * to those who maybe are suffering from a touch of laziness. However, it is demeaning those in situations where morale is already incredibly low. I also don't agree with taking any of life's enjoyments away from people. Making people survive on simply essentials vouchers will be akin to putting them on house arrest. I could see things like stealing increasing, even depression. It isn't as simple as just telling people to get a job.

I do agree however that someone on benefits should not be able to bring in the same amount as one in equivalent circumstances who works full time - it does not encourage those reluctant to work and is unfair, I can completely understand why it annoys people. The key thing though is looking at equivalent circumstances. The example given earlier (I think by Sean South) of a single mother with two children getting more money than a couple with one child - so she should! This is not the sort of comparison that is worth making, as the working couple are never going to like the results, it is one for The Daily Mail and the likes, an apples and oranges comparison designed to prove a point that isn't there.

The United Kingdom has the lowest social mobility rate in the western world (for anyone that doesn't know this essentially means that where your parents live/earn and what 'class' they are is more likely to be how you end up than anywhere else in the west), if people in the lower classes know they are never going to be able to better themselves out with exceptional circumstances (and we are talking things like becoming a professional footballer or winning The X-Factor here!) then you can understand why there is a feeling of hopelessness amongst the poor, after all what's the point of breaking your back every day when it isn't going to make a bit of a difference?

 

This is a problem though, many people are using this as an excuse, its a cop out is some cases, if you think that you are one nil down before the game even starts then you have lost before the game has even started.

And sean south i have complete sympathy for you, my post wasn't directed at blaming people for having children, money should never be an issue when you have a child, but in todays backward society as you put it there is an issue with money and thats wrong.

 

Some very good points - I agree with some and disagree with others.

Personally I am a fan of the government cuts as I see them as totally necessary. Not nice but needed. The same is true across the debt ridden globe. The cuts are effective in that they are stemming a rising deficit and that was the main objective. We have just come out the most successful economic period the globe has ever seen (no exaggeration in my opinion). Now we are between recessionary periods it is inevitable spending needs slashed.

I think minimum wages should increase but I dont have an issue with most benefit cuts. I wouldnt have an issue if benefits were linked to previous work records for those over a certain age. So if you have worked and contributed in the past then you should receive what you have previously put in. If you have contributed nothing during the good times, then you only get subsistence. Even in the late 90s when anyone could find work in a local McDonalds or any other entry level job, there were 1.7m unemployed. These people are likely still claiming and have never chosen to work even when jobs were there.

I dont see how giving people subsistence is likely to give them depression. If we are talking about people who have never contributed then you are doing them a favour. And I genuinely believe they will be better off with coupons because their benefits would go further, as opposed to spending it on non-essentials.

 

Agree with you there. But who's fault is that really?
Aren't we all given the right to free public education? Free uni fees (in Scotland for Scottish students), free colleges for full time students?
We all start school at 5, and all the way through school, most (not all) pupils are trying to be conditioned to go out in the world and make a living.
So what if not all pupils don't? Is that the states fault if someone is generally an * all the way through school and doesn't want to learn? Imo, most areshole parents have wee arsheole kids, and that is where the cycle is.
We are all given the same oppertunities at a very young age, but there comes a time when its up to you to decide what you do with it. You can't blame society for failing at school, it is free after all and it's up to you to decide to better yourself.

 

* the benefit cheats.

Feel sorry for all the good honest people who struggle to make ends meet by grafting for their wage whilst watching their tax go to these jokers kicking back on handouts doing * all. Sickening.

 

This has always been my opinion - not so much from any political perspective, as just from honestly looking at what I see. By comparison to the amount of money siphoned off by banks, dodgy business practices, and tax avoidance, benefit fraud accounts for a laughably small amount. Interesting to have that confirmed by someone with experience of the system.

 

OK, here's my take on the minority of people who genuinely don't want to work.

As far as I can see, it's a flat-out waste of public money & resources relentlessly pursuing these folk to make sure they are looking for jobs.

And not only is it costly, it's actually counterproductive. The reasoning's quite simple:

As a former unemployed person who now runs a small business, think about my situation if I'm recruiting staff. Let's say the government has "successfully" ploughed resources into forcing a minority of genuinely lazy people to apply for jobs. At best, this is a waste of my time in pointless interviews. At worst, one of these folk who doesn't want to work gets thru my net, and I actually employ them.

* I am now employing a lazy person who doesn't want to be working. Lose for me.
* That person is now doing a job they just don't want to be doing. Lose for them.
* And because our society currently has a couple of million less jobs than people who actually want one, some motivated person out there who needs that job has been denied it. Lose for them.
* And what's more, public money has been spent chasing up the lazy folk in order to create this negative situation. Lose for all of us.

 

Here Here mate, well said, dirty rotten government who think its more important to allow local councils to wast billions to fund farces like olympic games and unwanted city centre trams etc etc etc etc, money that would be better off in a benefit system, nhs etc

 

The main reason for benefit cheating in my opinion is that most lower skilled jobs pay very little. The goverment make being on benefit a viable option for those willing to cheat the system rather than work for less or similar to what they would get if on benefits.

Most people will gladly work if payed a decent wage.

People always assume benefit cheats are lazy people....Not the case.....Look at the cheats who collect the dole money and have jobs on the side where they are payed cash in hand.

Add the cash in hand payments to thier benefits and they have a half decent standard of living. They will have their rent or morgage payed for in most cases by the goverment.

Give them jobs with a decent wage in the first instance and viola!...no more claiming benefits and working on the grip.

 

Sometimes life seems so unfortunate
That's why I don't give a *
The poor stay poor, the rich get richer
It's just so disproportionate
you don't know just what I go through
That's why I would rather show you
Just how far that I can take it
Every rule I'm breaking it

Bad meets Evil - Above the Law

 

I dont believe there is any founding for this opinion. It is very much like saying "theives only steal because they cant afford stuff, so if we give them enough money they will stop stealing". It is just not logical. People benefit cheat because they want more money that they cannot earn honestly. But that has nothing to do with giving them a viable option. They do have an option. They can work hard to achieve a good standard of living, they can work a low level job for a fairly rubbish standard of living, or they can scrounge and steal to obtain a fairly rubbish standard of living. They chose not to contribute to society and they chose to do nothing to improve themselves.

There are guys I went to school with who have never worked a day in 10 years, there are many who work in fairly rubbish jobs, and there are some who are very educated and earn a decent wage. We all went to the same school. Had the same books. Same teachers and very similar (if not exact same) opportunities. It has little to do with lack of a "viable option" and a lot to do with lacking a good old fashioned work ethic while demanding a standard of living above their station.