Champions league exit will hamper the squad building - Neil Lennon

Discussion in 'Transfer Rumours' started by Blochairnbhoy, Aug 13, 2019.

Discuss Champions league exit will hamper the squad building - Neil Lennon in the Transfer Rumours area at TalkCeltic.net.

  1. Dazzler86

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    I'm kind of stuck in 2 minds. I want new signings but on the other hand i have no faith in whoever it is that actually signs any * nowadays... is it Lennon, is it lawell or is it hammond?? Whole structure at the top of the club seems * up atm. Just go out n get John park back. He could atleast find some diamonds in the rough so to speak
     
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  2. Luz1904

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    I agree with you. Nevertheless, and because I see frequent references to the "Benfica/Porto model" let me clarify that particular point. Benfica invests very little compared to what the club receives from transfers nowadays. The club is focused in reducing its debt and is leaving the high risk/high reward strategy behind. The whole strategy of club is based on homegrown players and investing heavily on youth facilities.

    10 years ago, Benfica and Porto were able to grab the best young south american talents at reasonable prices. That does not happen anymore. This is because a couple of things changed. Clubs like City or Real buy them straight from south american clubs and inflated those markets. Third party ownership was forbidden (and therefore the risk can't be shared with wealthy shady businessman), etc.

    Porto still tried (until very recently) to follow that model, with awful results. Benfica have won 5 out of the last 6 Portuguese leagues and reduced its debt significantly. Porto is under financial fair play and has had terrible financial results. I shared those last year. For your reference:

    Porto's elimination yesterday was a terrible news for them. A club like Benfica (or Celtic, if I may add) can survive a year without Champions League and still break-even. Porto cannot. Following yesterday's result their will either sell the few talented players still in their squad or face high losses again.

    In my opinion, the future is long term. Scouting "buy-able" players is much more difficult nowadays, as players are getting poached earlier than ever. The key is investing in quality youth facilities, give a chance to the youngsters, hire a manager who understands the philosophy of the club, etc. For example, Benfica sacked the manager Jorge Jesus after reaching 2 Europa Leagues finals and winning 2 Portuguese leagues in a row because he wasn't willing to give youth players a chance and only wanted pricey south american players. The most notorious case is Bernardo Silva, who is a die hard Benfica fan (even has a tatoo with the club's motto) but had to leave the club in order to get play time. Today Bernardo Silva is one of the best players in the Premier League and Jorge Jesus left Saudi Arabian club Al Hilal for Flamengo, after struggling to land a challenging job in Europe. Parting with Jorge Jesus was a very risky move at the time but it paid off. João Félix (to name another world class talent) would have been wasted with Jorge Jesus.

    Benfica's current starting back 6 has 4 homegrown players: Nuno Tavares (FB, 19y), Ferro (CB, 22y), Rúben Dias (CB, 22y) and Florentino Luís (DM, 19y). All of these players will be world class, I have no doubt. Rúben Dias is a starter for the Portuguese national team and was elected the UEFA Nations League's final MVP, for example. Other homegrown talents already in the first squad include Gedson Fernandes (transfermarkt value of 20M€) and Jota (transfermarkt value of 10M€).

    Notorious former youth (i.e., signed when they were 4-16y old) players of the club include the following:
    • Ederson (signed when he was 15, sold to Man. City for 40M€);
    • João Cancelo (signed when he was 13, sold to Valência for 15M€ and acquired by Man. City for 65M€);
    • André Gomes (signed when he was 16, sold to Valência for 18M€ and acquired by Everton for 25M€)
    • Renato Sanches (signed when he was 9, sold to Bayern for 35M€)
    • João Carvalho (signed he was 8, sold to Notthingham Forest for 15M€)
    • Bernardo Silva (signed when he was 8, sold to Mónaco for 16M€ and acquired by Man. City for 50M€)
    • Hélder Costa (signed when he was 10, sold to Wolverhampton for 15M€ and acquired by Leeds United for 17M€)
    • Rony Lopes (signed when he was 8, sold to Man. City for 1M€ and acquired by Sevilla for 20M€)
    • Ivan Cavaleiro (signed when he was 14, sold to Mónaco for 15M€)
    • Gonçalo Guedes (signed when he was 9, sold to PSG for 30M€ and acquired by Valência for 40M€)
    • João Félix (signed when he was was 15, sold to Atlético Madrid for 126M€)
    Adding those amounts, its more than 300M€ to Benfica just from youth players. Plus minor fees from future sales under UEFA rules.

    Mixing current and former players, we could imaginee the following 11 of Benfica's homegrown players (all of them <26y):
    1. Ederson (GK, 25y, Man. City)
    2. João Cancelo (RB, 25y, Man. City)
    3. Rúben Dias (CB, 22y, Benfica)
    4. Ferro (CB, 22y, Benfica)
    5. Nuno Tavares (LB, 19y, Benfica)
    6. André Gomes (CM, 26y, Everton)
    7. Renato Sanches (CM, 21y, Bayern)
    8. Bernardo Silva (W, 25y, Man. City)
    9. Rony Lopes (W, 23y, Sevilla)
    10. Gonçalo Guedes (FW, 22y, Valência)
    11. João Félix (FW, 19y, Atlético Madrid)
    Arguably the best youth setup in world football at the moment. Most of Benfica's talents are not bought but formed on Benfica's youth academy. In the 2005-2015 period Benfica's starting 11 often did not have a single Portuguese player. It was a mix of Brazilian and Argentinian players. Nowadays, there are always 4-7 Portuguese players, most of them from the youth setup.

    All of this just to underline that Porto's model is outdated and they are really struggling at the moment. Benfica started investing heavily in its youth setup around 2005 and this allowed the club to gain hegemony in the Portuguese league as soon as its started to promote its first good generation of homegrown players. Scouting (even if really good) is not enough to compete in today's inflated market. In my humble opinion Celtic's strategy should be broader than being proactive in the transfer market (although definitely important). Big clubs from smaller leagues can hardly compete without improving the standard of their local players.
     
  3. Blochairnbhoy Gold Member Gold Member

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    Now he is saying going out of the CL WONT effect his dealings * is going on with Lenny he is turning into a rambling mess!
     
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  4. tarboltontim We have nothing to lose but our chains. Gold Member

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    @Luz1904 thanks for a really interesting post.
     
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  5. Whoflungdung

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    So the focus is on growing our own...we have excellent young players at dev stage but given the duopoly of scottish football most dont get enough game time or no game time and are loaned out mostly never to come back and get game time ..............
     
  6. Dublin Celt

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    I can't see why in moderation a few a year can't play 10/15 games. No disrespect but there a lot of very winnable home games in league and cup comps. Okoflex on left wing isn't far off, certainly connell, maybe Robertson, Coffey Welsh or certainly Henderson. I'm talking like 20mins off bench for one of them the odd game even when 3-0 upbor whatever

    Sent from my VTR-L09 using Tapatalk
     
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  7. LectersLuncheon

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    Lennon contradicting himself again, as well as adding all the usual transfer soundbites... "working hard" "great board" "looking for quality".

    Bullshit
     
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  8. Luz1904

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    Portuguese football is just the same in terms of duopoly. Benfica and Porto have won every league title since 2002. Benfica has beaten Sporting 5-0 in the Supercup, less than 2 weeks ago.

    Scouting the best talents in the country and having a wide network is important. Investing heavily in youth facilities is important. Investing heavily in youth coaches is important. Benfica does all of this. But the most difficult thing is to get the transition to senior football.

    Nowadays Benfica youth players aged 15+ can develop at the following stages:
    1. Senior Squad
    2. Benfica B
    3. Benfica u-23
    4. Juniores (u-19; includes the UEFA Youth League)
    5. Juvenis (u-17)
    The senior squad is the target. Something they all dream with.

    Benfica B plays in Portuguese second division. It is a very competitive league, where younger players can face veterans of the game going all out to reach the first division. Porto B also plays in the Portuguese second division, e.g..

    Benfica u-23 plays in the u-23 league. It is much less competitive than the Portuguese second division where Benfica B plays. It is similar to the reserve squads premier league clubs have.

    Juniores (u-19) and Juvenis (u-17) are the youth teams of Benfica, where they play against kids their own age (Porto, Sporting, Braga, Vitória Guimarães, etc).

    10 years ago, a Benfica u-17 very good player would play in the Juvenis. If he really was outstanding, maybe he could play in the Juniores against kids 2 years older than him. This kid would score 3 goals per game and win 90% of the games by a 10-0 score. He would have 5 or 6 difficult games per season, against the youth teams of Porto, Sporting and Braga. Then he would reach the first team and most likely fail. Either because he was not used to adversity, to physical contact, etc.

    Nowadays, a Benfica u-17 very good player plays in Benfica u-23. If he really is outstanding, he plays for Benfica B. A very good u-19 player is certainly playing for Benfica B as well. This kids are playing against experienced veterans in the Portuguese second division, experiencing adversity, defeat and failure since they are 16-18 years old. They only play for the Juniores and Juvenis in UEFA Youth League games and in the playoff games against Porto, Sporting and Braga.

    João Félix had his Benfica B debut on 17 September 2016, when he was 16.

    [​IMG]

    He played 29 games for Benfica B, he played in the Juvenis and Juniores squads and he played in the UEFA Youth League. He reached the first team when he was 18. Adding the national team matches to the equation, he was much more mature than your ordinary 18y player. On 12 May 2018 he had not played for Benfica's first squad but I already knew him very well.

    On 2 March 2019 he was scoring in Estádio do Dragão and celebrating in front of Porto's ultras like it was nothing. And this summer, he left.

    [​IMG]

    This are the young players in Benfica current senior squad:
    • 22y old Ferro (CB): 89 games for Benfica B (Portuguese second division) and 20 games for Benfica senior squad.
    • 22 old Rúben Dias (CB): 53 games for Benfica B (Portuguese second division) and 87 games for Benfica senior squad.
    • 19y old Nuno Tavares (FB): 12 games for Benfica B (Portuguese second division) and 2 games for Benfica senior squad.
    • 19y old Florentino Luís (DM): 69 games for Benfica B (Portuguese second division) and 16 games for Benfica senior squad.
    • 20y old Gedson Fernandes (CM): 40 games for Benfica B (Portuguese second division) and 46 games for Benfica senior squad.
    • 20y old Jota (W): 45 games for Benfica B (Portuguese second division) and 8 games for Benfica senior squad.
    This 6 young players, aged 19 to 22, have 487(!) matches between them in the Portuguese first and second divisions. They are much more experienced than your average 25y old who gets to play 10' every couple of games and sits on the bench for most of the season.

    Benfica B started the Portuguese second division last week. Won 2-1 against Estoril, the former team of Marco Silva (Everton's manager) and one of the main contenders to reach the promotion to Portuguese first division. Rafael Brito (17y), João Ferreira (18y), Tiago Dantas (18y), Úmaro Embaló (18y), Gonçalo Ramos (18y) and Pedro Álvaro (19y) played. That's a great portion of the current "elite group" between the ages of 17 and 19 and most of them will play for Benfica main squad. There is a club mentality that prepares the talented players to be ready when they are 19y. Rafael Brito is 17y old and is already playing against Estoril's main squad, composed of 30y olds, instead of beating Estoril u-17 10-0.
     
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  9. thailandceltic

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    He is simply telling us what the board tells him, hes a joke IMO. "Yes Peter, No Peter three bags full Peter"
     
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  10. GavCFC1

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    When asked if he could have a new addition before Thursday's Europa League clash against AIK, Lennon said: "Possibly. Might be cup-tied though.''
     
  11. McGuire Gold Member Gold Member

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    That would tie in with Melling, or is it different cause of Europa and champion's league?
     
  12. HTG "I have an uncle who does Yoga"

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    Would taylor not be cup-tied for us if he signed?
     
  13. The Thumb

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    Pretty sure, the cup tied rule was scrapped.
    May be wrong tho..
     
  14. The Thumb

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    Just checked.
    Actually, the rule still exists for the qualifiers.
     
  15. CountyDownFaithful

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    What a * shambles of a transfer window again. 2 weeks to go and still needing a LB, RB, CB and CDM.

    BRUTAL!
     
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  16. Blochairnbhoy Gold Member Gold Member

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    If we sign Greg * Taylor am seriously done with our recruitment
     
  17. CountyDownFaithful

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    Do you think he’s the cup tied player Lennon is referring to?

    Recruitment/scouting is embarrassing. We are still mainly working from a list produced by Congerton - the man who gave us Compper. Then others such as Greg Taylor just because he’s in the Scottish league.

    Bringing in Hammond on a short term basis is so pointless. What’s he expected to do in the space of 3 months.

    Rodgers changed the whole recruitment strategy and consequently its now a mess. Board have failed to rectify it and it’s now hampering Lennon’s reign.

    Sooner we get a permanent DOF the better.
     
  18. Blochairnbhoy Gold Member Gold Member

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    Melling hasn’t played in Europa league qualifying therefore wouldn’t be cuptied and Taylor has so it has to be him
     
  19. Dazzler86

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    It's unorganized chaos it would seem. Weeks of chasing a CM. Harper, Turnbull, sawyers, cifuentes and now no mention of a CM. Weeks of KT going and replaced him with a left back that can't defend and can't contribute anything offensively either (going with stats). Lustig wasn't offered a new deal and we get a CB in to replace a RB. Boyata and benkovic leave (two starting CBs) and we spend 7m on 1 CB who can't turn quicker than milk!!! Lose 2 and get 1. Give Sinclair a new deal and stick him on gardening leave it would appear.
     
  20. Blochairnbhoy Gold Member Gold Member

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