Greatest ever... what makes a great?

From here http://www.talkceltic.net/forum/showthread.php?t=137930

I think if you are really good you will stand out in any era as things are relative. Pele would score like Ronaldo if he played today due to his natural ability and modern training/fitness techniques.

Maradona, as you say played at a time of hard tackling - he was from Argentina, famous for the dirt tricks and crunching tackles. Yet he was so good that he danced around players the world over. Put Messi there and I think he could still do it, he is just so naturally good. Put Maradona in todays game, do you think he could score more than Messi? I think it may be impossible to score more than a fit Messi.

Players like Garrincha would have been better, seeing that he could have had his legs fixed. He could have had more longevity.

Other players, like Leônidas, while an amazing goalscorer really stand out for their creativity and innovation. "The Rubber Man" came up with the bicycle kick.

The thing is, it really is impossible to say for sure :smiley-laughing002:

 

In my lifetime I would have to say Maradona, although Messi and Ronaldo are coming close to him. Maradona not only did it at club level but also at international level, his displays during the 86 World Cup were breathtaking, Argentina won that World Cup but it should've really been Maradonas name on the trophy, he basically won most of the games on his own.
For me thats one of the main things that separate him from the likes of Messi and Ronado, until they can do what he did in a major international tournament they will always be one of the greatest....not THE greatest.

 

Garrincha would never have been the greatest, too * up. One leg longer than the other, lost his virginity to a dog (or was it a goat, cant remember), chain smoker from the age of about 8, jakey, and had more bairns than bob marley. good payer but far too messed up to push on and be the greatest

 

I don't really buy into the "needs to do it at a world cup" argument. I mean, is the World Cup a higher standard of football than the Champions League?
Or maybe you could argue Messi or Ronaldo would not be as great without their club team mates.
Messi is the greatest ever player in my opinion.

 

The thing is, I actually think he will turn it on at the next World Cup, its tailor made for him this time....South America, huge Argentinean support, he's matured alot since the last World Cup, playing better than ever. This could be Messi's World Cup.

 

The world cup arguement is aloada *, if messi was from * Wales would ye say he wont be considered the best till he wins it with them.

 

I'm not saying he has to * win it, what I meant was it would be brilliant if he could turn it on a major international tournament ie. The World Cup, as Maradona, Pele, Cruyff , Zidane and Eusebio have all done.
Messi is the greatest player on the planet at the moment but if he could if he could turn it on, on the biggest stage of all, in a team thats without the likes of Xavi, Alba and Iniesta, against the best international sides at the moment such as Brazil, Spain and Germany, as Maradona did in 86, then he would and rightly so be regarded as the greatest player of all time.

 

Well I would say that he is one of the greatest ever. He led Brazil to World Cup glory in 1962 almost single handedly - and that's not being unfair on the other greats in that squad like Vavá, Nílton Santos, Didi and Zagallo. Joint top scorer and voted player of the tournament. I think that he was, undisputedly, the best dribbler of a ball there has ever been.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_V6y5P050M"]Garrincha - YouTube[/ame]

He sadly had a "unconventional" live which led to his early death but put him in todays world and I'm sure he could be have been better and played for longer. He could of had his spine and legs fixed, had a healthier lifestyle and giving more help dealing with his personal issues. He could of still ended up poor, it's still quite common in Brazil for players from poor backgrounds to spend everything.

Garrincha, he was a cripple, an illiterate, an alcoholic, a womaniser - and a complete footballing genius.

Well he is joint top scorer with Suárez in CONMEBOL qualifying. He has started to bring his goal scoring form at Barcelona to Argentina. I think he could really turn it on this time.

 

The Champion's League winners are normally a team full of World Class players. There's the difference

 

Maradona has been the best player ever. Can't see that changing anytime soon either.

 

Players are far fitter as well, people tend to forget that. Can you imagine someone like Ronaldo in the 80's?

 

When people talk about Maradona they usually talk about the 1986 World Cup, which is natural I suppose. Something that rarely gets mentioned, but should always be mentioned, is the effect he had on Napoli when he signed for them. He revolutionised that club. Napoli had never in their history won Serie A until Maradona arrived. They won it twice while Maradona played for them and they've never won it again since Maradona left. That's how much of an effect he had. He's a * like figure in Naples, every bit as much and maybe even more so than Messi is in Barcelona.

 

What often doesn't get mentioned is Napoli had a cracking team outwith Maradonna as well, with Maradonna being the star man. Nothing like Messi's Barca of course but still good players

 

Thats cause they spent a lot of money and bought good players at that time. He played up front with Careca who was the Brazil striker and the 2nd top scorer at the 1986 world cup along with Maradona and Alemao who played in Brazils midfield and had Italy Internationals like Bagni, Giordano, De Napoli, Francini, Crippa, Fusi, and Ciro Ferrara plus Zola for his last couple of seasons. It was a good team of good players.

There seems to be a sort of myth that Maradona played for Argentina and Napoli with poor players but they were good teams. Not exactly Barcelona's but still good teams and back then there werent a lot of great teams with star studded teams like there is now as merchandising and TV money etc didnt exist so if your stadium had 20,000 fans per week more than someone elses then you could only afford 1/2 players more than them. Nowadays with TV money, merchandising etc the biggest teams can afford 10/12 top quality players.

 

Errr, no.

 

The 1986 Argentina team was not a great team. Without Maradona there's no way they win that World Cup, they probably don't even come close. Maradona put that team on his back and carried them to victory.

The Napoli teams he played in may have had other good players in them, no team that wins a league can have 10 dummies and one genius, but again, without Maradona they would not have won a league title. Nothing you've said changes the fact that Napoli's history looks like this.........................

Pre-Maradona - No Serie A titles
With Maradona - 2 Serie A titles
Post Maradona - No Serie A titles

It's right there in black & white. One man transformed that team.

 

I think that's doing the other players a disservice as well, there is no doubt that the Maradona Napoli team was invested heavily in but Maradona was the outstanding difference in a very good team. With Argentina their manager played that perfectly, people tend to ignore just how good a solid defensive unit they were and they had Maradona, a man who could unlock any defence.

If you are talking about comparison's to Messi though I think Messi has everything Maradona does and more of a goalscoring edge to him. 90 goals in a year was something Maradona could only dream of.

Even if you compare there Barcelona careers Maradona wasn't all that successful there. There is no denying he's one of the best ever, it's much down to opinions but by the end of their two careers I'll think you'll see that Messi is better in terms of greatest ever, he'll 34 goals in his international career, Messi already has more at 26 in less games.

The world cup is the only thing that Messi hasn't surpassed him in.