Celtic and the Irish Struggle

Why do some fans these days have a problem with it?

I'm not saying you have to join in but surely having chose or inherited Celtic as your team you must have known what we were all about?

Sure the armed struggle is over (officially) and yes we are in the 21st century (not sure why that matters) but Celtic fans have sung about Ireland since our inception.

From the Manchester Martyrs to the Easter Rising, War of Independence to the Provos... Celtic fans have chose to celebrate these heroes in song.

Why all of a sudden is it a problem for some?

You don't have to like it but surely you understand it, after all you are Celtic supporters and must know about our history?

 

I think sections of our support want to be wanted and liked by others and by that I mean our neighbours in england and see the republican side of our support as an unwanted baggage. .

The more reasoning issue would be that as generations go more and more I'd say that at a guess more and more within scotland don't have the immediate irish heritage of there fathers and so on and so there's an association that's lacking that maybe in the 70's and 80's a majority would find hard to comprehend the distancing of today..

Still though any celtic supporter should understand and accept the history and struggles of oyr heritage..

Any other reasons I haven't a clue..

 

I just find it a bit sad that a support as imaginative as ours can't come up with any better way of expressing the club's 'Irishness' than to continually sing about the IRA. It's such a narrow and limited way of celebrating such a wonderful country.

 

It actually angers me that people think they can tell me I can't sing songs at games that my da and granda sang in the jungle. Who the * do they think they are?

Thankfully these types of supporters are mainly confined to the internet.

 

That's what I was getting at i suppose. I understand people not being brought up during the Troubles and therefore not having that same passion for it, but surely supporting Celtic means you accept this part of our history.

I'm all for diversity and us being a broad church, but not at the expense of acquiring fans who seek to ignore part of what makes us unique.

I'd rather go back to being obscure also rans in the 90s than this new found support borne out of success.

 

Singing about the men and women who laid down their lives to rid Ireland of barbaric foreign rule is the perfect way to express Irishness.

Ireland is synonymous with armed struggle. Whenever I'm over for away games there are always cracking conversations on the bus about Irish history and politics. I find people in Glasgow to be very clued in. To suggest they only sing these songs to offend people is ridiculous.

Do the thousands of Scots who take part in Easter commemorations over here only do so to cause offence too?

 

The Fields? Big Strong Man?

"IRA" songs make up a small part of what we are all about.

Don't define it by Ireland mate, define it by Celtic.

Celtic Song
Willie Maley
BOTOB
LTPS
YNWA
The Fields
Sean South
COYBIG
ROH
Loansome Boatman
Celtic, Celtic
Discoland
Over and Over

Etc...

Rebel songs make up a small part of our song sheet. It should concern no one.

 

I have no other reason why the support, some of it rather would try and distance themselves from many a supporters upbringing and past but it definitely is happening to a degree..

I don't think we will ever lose our irish culture and heritage even though the support is more diverse these days, it will never happen and as has been pointed out it should never be allowed to happen..

 

I'll re-post my response to Fatface in this thread as a "dipping my toes in" post.

Firstly you have no right whatsoever to deny myself and others our Irish identity due to the fact that we were born in Scotland. My forefathers came to Scotland over a century ago during the famine. The overwhelming majority of them—all bar one, in fact, my paternal grandmother—came from Irish families from Sligo and Donegal. I was born in Glasgow, I speak with a Glasgow accent, my parents speak with Glasgow accents, were born here have worked here, so have my grandparents and their parents. And I consider myself an Irishman. There is a quote you may be familiar with. "Nations are nations if they feel themselves to be a nation. Scotland overwhelmingly feels itself to be a nation." There is no need to draw political conclusions from these words. But they do accurately reflect the reality of human identities. You cannot arbitrarily proscribe an ethnic identity to another because ethnic identities are created by the expression of those that claim them. And the community of Glasgow and the West of Scotland that is descendant of those first emigrants from Ireland still to this day have a strong connection with Ireland and identify with her, her history and her people, because they are a part of Ireland's history and people.

Mr O'Hagan's pieces is fundamentally flawed and contradictory. Within it he has identified a community that is essentially distinct from the wider Scottish community. He heralds "our" contributions to Scottish society. This blatantly carries with it the implications of distinctness. And I completely reject the implicit belief that those of us that identify with Ireland somehow devalue or disregard our attachment to Glasgow and the West of Scotland. If an Irishman can take pride in being a Derryman—though why on earth anyone would want to take pride in that is beyond me! :smiley-laughing002:—or a Corkman why can an Irishman not take pride in being a Glasgow man? He is * right that our forefathers built this city into what it is. That by their sweat and blood they birthed one of the greatest cities in Europe with an illustrious past and that they handed it down to us. That does not make us Scottish. That makes us Irishmen that have created a new home for ourselves in a harsh world.

His entire rant against what can only be described as "plastic Paddyness" betrays your statement that there is not an Irish community in Glasgow and that we are really Scottish. He has identified an expression—even if he does negatively and condescendingly—of Irishness amongst the Irish community in Glasgow. How is that not enough to prove to you that there is an Irish community that supports Celtic? That not only supports Celtic but built Celtic? For generations we have sung our songs. For generations we have held fast to our religious faith. For generations we have followed the saga of Irish politics. For generations we have actively supported that struggle. For generations young boys and girls have hung tricolours on their walls and asked their da' about the Easter Lily. I think I can say with some confidence that I am not the only person here that learned the Soldier's Song and Boys of the Old Brigade before they ever learned Flower of Scotland. Patrick Pearse, James Connolly, Tom Barry, Ray MccReesh and Bobby Sands. These are the names that young people in Glasgow's Irish community learn. I can further say with some confidence that Irish history is better known among youth than Scottish history. Because that is the history, the legacy and culture that our forefathers handed down to us. How can you dismiss it as non-existent? That is complete rubbish, my friend.

Secondly I am well aware of our club's founding. You, however, are not. Brother Walfrid's intentions with Celtic was threefold. 1) That they could raise money to fund the charitable endeavors of the parishes in the east end that operated the "Dinner Tables". 2) That they could provide facilities and opportunities to maintain the physical health and fitness of the Catholic young men of the community. 3) Having witnessed the great effect that Hibernian had with the Irish in Edinburgh he wished to recreate the same success in Glasgow, to empower the broken-down Irish community. This is why chose "Celtic"—although he wanted it pronounced "Kel-tic"—for the name, to represent the history of the community into which it was conceived. Its founding committee members were all Irishmen! William McKilliop was an Member of Parliament for Sligo! His fellow committee members and some of the first players actively campaigned for Irish Home Rule. Michael Davitt was and still is a hero amongst Glasgow's Irish community! Glasgow sent a delegation to Dublin's gathering of the Irish diaspora to discuss Home Rule and it was composed of Celtic men! Glasgow was well known for its mass-rallies supporting the Irish national cause. We have inherited the political beliefs and aspirations of our forefathers. You may not like them. But they are ours.

Thirdly it has to be said that our singing of rebel songs in no way effects the peace process of Northern Ireland. Many of our songs are not applicable to the crisis in the north and are rather songs about the prior-Border Campaign (never mind the troubles) Irish armed struggle. Do you think the peace process can be carried out by completely ignoring the existence of the Irish Republic in the "south"? You realise that the Republic has also been involved in the peace process and that every year there are national celebrations in the Republic of the 1916 Easter Rising? Should Dubliners be expected to shun Pearse and Plunkett to soothe the sensibilities of mentally challenged Orangemen in Belfast? Some of our songs do apply to the situation in Northern Ireland. Do you think the peace process will go anywhere as long as the British government ignores its culpability in the atrocities that were * Sunday, the death of Aidan McAnespie and the inaction that resulted in the death of Hunger Strikers that simply wanted acknowledgement of their obvious status of political prisoners? Do you think the peace process will ever get anywhere as long as Loyalist ears are "protected" from those mean old fenians celebrating the Provisional IRA that came into existence on the day Loyalists launched pogroms against the Catholic civilians of Belfast, forcing the IRA to take up their guns to defend Saint Matthew's Catholic Church against the terror and brutality they wished to inflict?

Yes we sing the IRA will set them free. Yes we say hello to the Provos. Because no one else will. And we will not forget. We will not let it happen again. We will burn the memory of British atrocity and Loyalist bigotry into the minds of every man, woman and child of future generations. Because no one else will.

I assure you, we already do.

 

Celtic and the Irish Struggle is part of the fabric anyone thats says different is in denial.

 

They go hand in hand as far as I'm concerned.

We should still be celebrating it 300 years from now just like Scotland do.

 

Yip with you there mate

 

Answered your own question there with regards to why some people don't feel the need to sing about armed struggles.

I think if internet forums existed in same capacity in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s you'd have seen the exact same difference of opinion then as now. Some support it, some don't like it, some can't be arsed either way. Our greatest manager was fed up with them. This "uprising" of people who can't be arsed with the IRA songs is not something that's appeared out of nowhere in the last ten years. It may have become a more prevalent opinion in recent years but that's only increased in inverse proportion to the IRA's relevance in modern times.

It's a shame that a lot of people who aren't 100% supportive of the need to sing these songs get accused of wanting to dilute the essence of the club, an overly aggressive defence that does nothing more than change the argument from the actual matter at hand. Not talking about this thread (yet) but it's happened so many times in the past and it's always the same because there is so much middle ground and no one is definitively going to come out with the right answer.

 

Let the people sing, when a song gets started you will either join in, or you won't, personally, I think they should all be sung with gusto, we are what we are.

 

I've heard some stories over the years of Irishmen who didn't appreciate the support singing songs about something they never lived and couldnt begin to truly understand. The people who said these things had no axe to grind other than to offer it up in the conversation. Everyone has their own views on it and personally I just don't relate to it at all. Like most folk on here I had an Irish grandparent a few more related on the Scottish side but that's as far as it goes. I consider myself a Scot because I am a Scot. I enjoy the football, the players and the manager as well as match day experiences but I don't go to matches thinking about the Irishness thing...........sorry lads but I'm a symptom of that change in the support. Having said that you won't get me denying the clubs history

 

I personally find that the number of fans who actively have an issue with it is relatively small.

On the other hand, the number of fans who are simply indifferent to it is getting larger by the year, and will continue to do so until eventually the fans who remember the struggles through song will be in a tiny minority. They'll never die out completely, of course.

The reason for this as far as I'm concerned is a mixture of two factors.

The first, the struggles are becoming more and more a part of distant history. As the older support base dies out, the younger takes over the mantle, and a lot of them won't have lived through the history like many of us did. It becomes less and less a factor in the lives of our support as time passes.

The second factor is the change in football.

No longer is it the game of the working classes who all headed to the pub for a few beers before heading to the match and paying at the turnstile. Nowadays it's family-friendly, expensive, and if recent incidents are anything to go by it's now actually shunning the type of fan who was welcomed through the gate to sing their Irish songs and express themselves politically.

Quite simply, football doesn't want that type of fan anymore. Unless he or she is willing to change and "move with the times", of course.

When you hear US sports fans, owners and players refer to their club as an organisation or a franchise, I have no doubt that clubs such as Celtic will be regarded as such openly and without issue within my lifetime, if they aren't already.

Football as a sport is changing. Not everyone likes that, but it's happening. The money men wish it to be so, and they control the clubs.

 

You will find that these people do not like these songs being sung by "those who lived and could begin to truly understand". These "Irish" people have no right to judge what understanding of Irish history these Celtic fans have.

Also if they looked and listen they will find that the vast majority of our support from Ireland partake in these songs.

 

Boring!

 

Feel free not to post in the thread if it's not to your taste.