Brendan Rodgers Discussion Thread

This probably sounds like a sarcastic question, but it's not intended that way: once the scouts and the manager have identified a player, isn't an accountant and a lawyer exactly who you would want to negotiate the deal?

This is the first thing that popped into my head when I read your post. Genuine question from a position of ignorance about how these things work in the real world.

 

This.

 

No, why would you want them making sporting decisions. These aren’t decisions being made from a budget perspective.

A director of football or a Sporting Director have experience and knowledge of football. A sporting director wouldn’t tell Michael Nicholson how to defend the club in court, for example. Why would he?

A footballing figurehead knows the game, knows football, knows talent, knows who’s worth what and is able to negotiate from that position. You can’t have Michael Nicholson making a decision on someone like Jacob Breum, for example. What knowledge does he have about the value of Go Ahead Eagles players? Likely none: it’s not his * job to know about footballers from other clubs. That’s why a Sporting Director is so important. All Nicholson and McKay should be doing is setting the budgets, the percentage of sales and the wage budget for the club.. that’s literally it.

 

Any notion of a DoF or getting a decent recruitment or youth set up can be forgotten about whilst these * are in charge.

It's gonna be the same until the leave. And there's a fair few of them in there.

And this * show of a set up, shows its deliberate. Too many smart intelligent business minded folk there to know it's wrong. All about the Benjamin's. Done their way.

 

I think they got lucky with Ange. I do think there was a desire to change but Ange came in and basically brought in these gems from different countries and they decided to make him the defacto director of football. They seem to rely heavily on the managers decision and whilst Rodgers should always have a say in the players we bring in, he should be part of a far wider group of people who make that decision, alongside a DoF and the Chief Scout.

 

So exactly what's happening? Weve signed guys from Japan this window. So no chance is that just what rodgers wants. I'm presuming it's his own targets that's taking so long.

 

That's not what's happening, no.

Michael Nicholson is leading the negotiations for players, right now. The club will have scouts in every continent of the globe. I don't have an issue with the scouting, I have an issue with recruiting players after we have scouted them, especially players who seem to be valued higher than £4m at the moment.

 

Is it a sporting decision, though? It seems to me (possibly wrongly) that the sporting part is identifying the players. When it comes to actually negotiating the deal, surely an accountant to make sure we're getting a good deal and a lawyer to make sure the contract is well put together is what we want.

I'm sure I'm missing something as I have no commercial or background or experience, I'm just wondering what.

 

Yes, it's a sporting decision. Part and parcel of negotiating a good deal should include knowing what you're buying and what is an acceptable bid and what is not. We will go back to the deal for Jakob Breum. How many times do you think Michael Nicholson has watched him? Probably not a lot. So, with that in mind, why is he the man to lead negotiations for him? The embarrassment of offering £1.5m when the club wanted close to £5m shows that the person offering the money doesn't have clue what he's bidding for. I'd say a guy with 14 goals/assists in 35 games in Holland, at 21 years old, is likely worth around £5m. Even if he isn't worth that and you feel like you can get a slightly better deal, you don't bid less than 30% of the asking price.

Michael Nicholson, before he became the CEO, was the Head of Legal. Him and his team would have been responsible for writing up contracts and the legalities of them. Celtic have a new head of the legal department and it will be his job to carry on those responsibilities. So, no. We don't need a CEO writing up contracts for players. That's why we have a legal department and that's what they're there for. The most basic of companies can write up employment contracts so it's not like we need * Robert Shapiro questioning what sort of win bonus or goal bonus Breum wants. Most contracts will be pretty much the same, as they are in most companies and the only differences will be the salaries/bonuses/length of contract. It's not difficult to change those. I'd hazard a guess, although not informed on the matter, that the Head of Legal won't meet the players at all. The contract will be put to the agent. Then the CEO will discuss that contract with the player and his representatives.

So, no. What you need is a Footballing figurehead, who answers to the CEO. Again, like a Director of Football, who's sole focus is to build up the footballing side of the club. From the scouting, to medical, to coaching, to the academy. All under his umbrella. A man, when presented with a player, can sit and watch hours of him with a Chief Scout and determine what sort of deal would be acceptable to the club and what would not. Michael Nicholson hasn't got * time to be watching videos of Inamura playing in Japan and deciding whether or not we should pay £250k for him or £2.5m. He's the CEO of a massive football club with ties * everywhere. Focus on what every other * CEO works on.

I really don't have that much of an issue with the way Desmond goes about his business when it comes to us. If he wants * all to do with running the club, he should keep away. The problem is, he doesn't want * all to do with the club. He wants it ran in a specific way and controls the club from the outside. That's what * me off. Then he decides to get involved when we change manager. He's meeting Ange on zoom. He's phoning up Rodgers and asking him to meet Nicholson and McKay. * off with that. A Sporting Director should be picking the next manager, not some owner who knows * all about football or a CEO who's likely never seen a match outside of Celtic Park/Hampden. We are a self sustaining monster. We don't need Desmond's money because everything we do is done without his cash. You have your shares because you love the club and it brings you some sense of nostalgia. Crack on but leave the club alone or buy the club outright.

 

I always figured that the football people would tell Nicholson and Lawwell what the player was worth and then it would be up to Nicholson and Lawwell to carry on negotiations based on that knowledge. I'm still not sure where the problem is TBH. I mean it still seems to me that a lawyer and an accountant would be better placed to get a good deal than a football man, both in terms of skills/knowledge and in terms of incentives.

Yeah, sorry I wasn't clear about the contract thing. I should clarify that I wasn't only talking about the employment contract with the player but also the contract between the clubs to transfer the player's registration. I also didn't mean that Nicholson should be in charge of every detail of that. But there are certain high-level aspects of the contracts that are relevant to negotiations (for example sell-on clauses) and I kind of assumed that Nicholson and Lawwell would be best placed to deal with that during the negotiations.

 

Do wonder if the Cup Final result and dip in form/entertainment at the end of last season has had any effect on backing for Rodgers.

Hard to imagine who we can get that's of a similar or better standard but end of the season was definitely disappointing as a fan and Rodgers did play a part in that.

 

That’s what the set up was when it was Ange and Nicholson and Lawwell was a director on paper not involved. And it was decisive, it was targeted and this is a part that often is ignored, they had all been vetted by Ange. And by that I mean he’d talk to them, try and judge what they’re like as people, what the attitude is and that for him, and he’d said it publicly a lot of the time, he had that as the most important thing for a signing. Then it was the talent. A very talented bad egg? He’d have no time for that. And that team you could see that in.

Then it gets muddled, and it’s murky. Mark Lawwell was Ange’s choice, they had a prior relationship when he was at City group. And we very carefully made sure to not mention anything but he had Peter as a dad, like he didn’t even have a chat to Mark about it, not involved at all. We didn’t say that but tried to portray that. Ange wouldn’t allow someone he wasn’t happy with to play a big part of his team and vision. He’s not the character to meekly accept it. Just look at how he left Australia. So it’s then whatever you believe, and my guess would be Peter wanted Mark there, Ange had worked with him before and he suited him fine and he happily agreed with it knowing that they work well.

Ange then left. Rodgers came in to a fanfair of promises that we’ve changed, we’re different now, it won’t be the same, you will get total support that you deserve Brendan. Then proceeded to absolutely * not. We brought in a good few players, and most of them absolutely shocking choices to splurge on. You can pick and choose what’s what, but there’s a bunch in that summer spending you can be pretty sure to point to that Ange and Lawwel Jr had an eye on them, doesn’t mean Ange would have gone for them. But Kwon, Yang, Tilio, isn’t sticking your neck out knowing that they were through Ange working with Mark Lawwell but we pulled the trigger to get them off the opinion of Lawwell Jr and his recruitment department. That was listed as two people in it both managers.

Nawrocki Rodgers claimed himself, but honestly I don’t believe that Rodgers historically when he’s brought in and spent on a player he staked his reputation on wanting, he sticks by them a lot and there’s a lot of leeway for them.

Then there was months of whispers and rumours about butted heads in the background, Rodgers thinking Jr Pedro and his mate were of no use, and he had no interest of even feigning to work for them. And they rumours seemed to get a bit of support with us signing two players that were 100% Rodgers, that he’d scouted and knew previously with Kuhn and Idah. Then the window shut, and the whatsapp texts that in all the history of whatsapp rumoured in the know messages is the only one I’ve ever seen actually be right. He went above Lawwell Sr, to Desmond, and drew his line in the sand that Mark Lawwell and the other guy go. He’s not dealing with them. 2 weeks later they left for pastures new.

It was in the same message, the chat with Desmond he made clear what he wanted to see in the summer and they back him. And we * did, something that’s speculative from me here - Idah was Rodgers seeing how fsr the support he was promised would be. He knew the price was higher than the board thought he was worth, was well reported it was £4.5m to £6m max we were rating him for the summer, £6m being at a push. Rodgers was public as * and chatty about Idahs his man no other targets, didn’t care that Norwich would be listening knowing we’ve said it’s him and only him, and can inflate a fee. And we backed him, we done it, and that was unusual as *. We spent £6m his chosen CB, the Engels deal whether you rate him or not is the most competent we’ve ever been. We spent money on what we had identified to replace O’Riley, we had the name on our lips for months that Engels was. O’Riley deal dragged on and on. And then he left, and Engels seamlessly came in. Everything was in place already just for when O’Riley deal would happen. That’s a level of competence I’ve not many other examples of us doing.

Rodgers made it clear Kyogo stays. We knocked back £10m for a 30 year old who wanted away to back him.
And the window shut and that’s a * novel to bring us to what we are now.


The board looked at the guys that he’d spent a considerable amount on, showing the backing and again all whispers and heard from a friend who knows a guy involved in the club or from small talk between pundits that they let slip about stuff they know from in the club - the boards got cold feet, worried, they backed him and they think may have overpaid.in my opinion the generic reference to ‘the board’ in reality is Peter Lawwell, Nicholson in the small sample we got from him on his own runs the business, doesn’t care for the limelight and ego stroked and gets on with running business and the guys who are employed by him to be the football experts, he followed them for football decisions and would try and make the finances match and contracts work. Peter Lawwell though, he wasn’t that, a micro manager with an ego, he holds a grudge (just look to any dealing he had with Petrie at Hibs after he thought he didn’t come out on top for Brown’s deal), he is obsessive about every penny counting and Rodgers had dismissed him as needing to deal with, went to Desmond and sacked his son.

Tidsale was announced then. And he runs a * of a lot of the recruitment department, and theres an obvious split when you see Rodgers opening pressers for Yamada or Inamura. But judging from his treatment and comments after that for Inamura in particular, he respects Tidsales efforts at least not a Lawwell Jr situation that. But looking back to my point about Ange, these guys are ones that Rodgers has scanned over the dats and the recruiters get them in. Rodgers has no idea of who they are or the mentality and attitude. I hope thats a big part of the monitoring process but its not Rodgers. Rodgers has made clear that he has his targets.

Rodgers any interview he does mentioning the board, it’s Michael and Desmond, never Peter. And we know for 99% surety with how we’ve reverted to the way we bid when he was CEO again he is part of the process, if not full negotiations with Nicholson delegating. BR doesn’t acknowledge him at all existing lately.

Then the bidding itself, you see a lot of the hesitation and haggling on our part is making sure it’s under £3m. Anything 3 and above, it goes to Dermots desk and he needs to give his signature to it. And by all accounts, Desmond doesn’t rush with that. There’s been talk of Trusty’s letter to sign off on £6m was about 3 weeks there before opening it. And that’s rumours agsin like much of this is, but it’s one that makes sense about hoe we just drag our feet on them.

Long, long summary here, didn’t intend to write as much but more sorting my thoughts the more that was pertinent.

TL/DR summary at the end of this ranty essay, all of the above ends up with basically the transfers work by Tidsale identifying and recruiting projects with the managers stamp of approval on them, the manager having his own targets, a negotiator for deals who would happily lose out on a £10m player if he signed, that we have a bid accepted £1.9m to delay it to save £500k on what was already a robbery - Nygren deal that, Nicholson runs the club, Dermot actually controls the club and has a pathetically low fee these days for £3m to come to his desk so he can decide if it’s worth it. He’ll do that whenever he deems fit. No signature, no signing. And this all happens with what seems little communication. Hence our manager communicating publicly, and unignorable statement.

We’ll see what we are by window shutting

 

In regards to Desmond the saying live long to see yourself become the villain comes to mind


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You know this just might be a point maybe the board see what the fans see did we not see the polish boy come I and do well then get bombed out same with sinsalo maybe they are wondering is Rodgers very dismissive of players which can lead to money being wasted


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Speaking very generally, my speculation on how it works is we’re more deal-driven than scouting driven.

So for example when we signed Kuhn, I would imagine his agent completely put that deal together and basically sent out an email to the likes of us.

Nicholson sees the email, likes the price and wage and passes it to the scouts to see if they know the player and if he’s any good. Scouts take a look and tell him it’s a goer and then Rodgers gives his sign off.

I feel like a lot of what we do works that way and when a deal like that comes through it runs smoothly.

When we actually identify a player and need to go out and make the deal work, we’re pretty much hopeless and that’s how the players ends up as a meme thread on here before they sign for Norwich or Stoke (unless the deal is £3m or less).

It would explain why we’re pretty much paralysed and come across as such a mess at times like this, but still also seem able to execute a deal very quickly out of no where.

 

It's about the optics of a deal, though.

Let's look at Antwerp right now. We had some form of interest in Balikiwisha. Their Sporting Director is Marc Overmars, who's an incredibly gifted Footballing Director(his legal issues are the reason for him being at Antwerp and not somewhere significant)... when he sits down with Michael Nicholson for a chat about Balikiwisha, he's going to be aware of the level of knowledge the person sitting across from him has when it comes to the player within about the first 5 minutes of the conversation. Likely, when it comes to Nicholson, there's going to be limited knowledge of the player. That can't be a good thing. The act of negotiating a good deal when it comes to transfers requires a certain knowledge of the player.

It's all well and good saying the footballing guys can tell the legal team what the maximum bid should be but sometimes, things change. A knowledgeable footballing man can determine whether or not it's acceptable to go over the limit when it's required. The transfer side of things isn't a stationary business, it's fast moving all the time. How can Michael Nicholson give his all to running the club in the final weeks of the transfer window when he's out talking to agents, clubs and players all the time? He's the CEO, he should be running the club, not negotiating contracts for players. I'm all for trying to get the best deal possible when it comes to players but eventually, the club will have to break their maximum limit for a player if the manager really wants him or their other options have fallen through or we literally have no other alternative. Eventually, Celtic will blink first. That literally happened last year with Idah. Rodgers clearly wanted him, he was his number one target and demanded we bring him in. The club waited and tried to get Norwich to negotiate their price down and eventually, after Kyogo went down with a shoulder injury, we blinked first and paid an astronomical amount of money for Idah. Way over what anyone on here wanted to pay. That's the issue. A director of football can walk away, can tell Norwich they're going elsewhere and actively begin negotiations with someone else.

That's the thing with a Director of Football. He needs to be able to take on Rodgers on a personal level because their will ultimately be disagreements. If a DoF had walked away from the Idah deal, Rodgers would likely have been * off but someone with the gravitas and confidence to come back at Rodgers, whilst also having the respect of the suits above him so he can get bigger budgets, bigger salaries, bigger percentage of sales. It's a * hard job. Cards on the table, I don't think someone like Rodgers wants to work with a Director of Football. I think he's always wanted to be in complete control and I think that's what we need to sort out. Rodgers is the defacto Director of Football, the Manager, the coach... he's everything and I think that's where we need to control. You look at clubs in Germany, who are the best run clubs in the world, their coaches don't even really get a say. They're coaches, not managers. Do you think Xabi Alonso was wanting Huljisen from Bouremouth? Or do you think he had even watched him? Unlikely. All the best clubs in the world are running with coaches, not managers. All the best clubs in the world have a Director of Football or Sporting Director or whatever other name is given to the title. We don't.

 

We may have a really outdated way going about business. But why is there a total breakdown in getting folk in. Brendan wants folk in, someone is stopping him. Why?

Is DD trying to use this as leverage to sign a mew deal? What is going on?

Excited we're back, but nervous as to how today plays out wi fans and longer term if we dont get the 4 minimum in that we need.

 

Since you hear * all from the club around spending strategy you are left to try an infer whats happening from reading between the lines.

It feels like what Rodgers is saying is the targets we are looking at are not going to progress the club in a meaningful way and he wants better. However the board are not convinced by the need to go out and (presumably) spend more on the kind of level of player Rodgers wants. So its it reached an impasse.

 

To be fair, I can just imagine Rory Sutherland using our board's transfer dealings as an example in one of his talks.