Religion: A Necessary Evil?

Martin M8 I am finding it hard to answer your questions as I dont know how to put them into quotes as you have done.

I will answer the first one and hope this covers most of it.

What bonds should unite us then ? How are we made aware of them if not through religion/superstition/tradition ? For them to be COMMON bonds they have to be communicated to us in some kind of MASS way.

The bond that should unite us is common decency, we should be able as human beings to have the good sense to strive for common goals and advance together as a people. for me religion seperates people more than unites them. I know you will say holy scriptures were created to bring the masses together and this is probably true. However in the world we live in today is far more advanced than when these ideas were first created.To make sense of the world as you put it. For me is impossible at this current time, as the whole world is pulling in diferent directions with Religion being the dominant factor.

Surely as a people we are clever enough to use our own common sense to evolve as a people and dont have to rely on the banner of a religion to keep us on the straight and narrow.

I have no problem with most of the teachings themselves ie. Love thy neighbour etcetc. However can this not be re-written into a common book along with all other beliefs. To be used as non religious teachings just fables of want for a better word and people can follow it if they like.

I know you are not looking for anything sinister as I am not either. I think you just miss understood my point. That superstision etcetc are not anything to do with religion they are just life´s quirks. you are right though that these things do give us a common bond and are harmless.

I hope this answers some of your points.

(Martin m8 if you reply to this post dont be ofended if I dont respond til tomorow as I am nackered I supose that is a form of bonding too.LOL)

 

Sorry Thomboy but you have missed my point.

Whether or not we have Christmas, or what colour Santa's coat was is irrelevant. What the rituals are is IMO pretty much arbitary. It's not what they are but simply that they exist which binds us together.

You may not think that there is much binding us together but that is not the case. We are all posting on this site because o a common bond; you celebrate Christmas as the the vast majority of westerners do; you buy your kids Easter eggs; you celebrate birthdays; you go out on stag nights etc etc.

We all participate in many common rituals which give us a collective identity. Without these there would be chaos and the world would be a poorer place.

 

We'll continue this tomorrow mate - I'm enjoying it.

I'll pm you tomorrow and tell you how to do the fancy quote thing.

 

Martin, I didn't really miss the point but what, I suppose, I was trying to say was that you are putting a 'commercial' spin on every religious event and, hence, my reference to Dickens.

I understand, totally, what you are saying but there are two sides to every story. These events which give us a common bond also create a lot of unnecessary tension, resentment and downright loathing from many people.

What about the split families at Christmas? What about the - genuine - poor who feel suicidal at not being able to afford keep up with the Jone's? What about the Christmas office parties which see couples end up in a divorce court?

Easter - Is it really a common bond for us all? Everybody buys eggs but how many keep them to celebrate the end of Lent, let alone The Resurrection? My experience of Easter is that, to all extent and purposes, it is a non event.

It is a sad fact of life that we as humans waste more time on those we don't like than the ones we actually do.

Christmas emphasizes that dislike/ hatred even more.

Easter just makes us despise 'so called' Christians who celebrate their risen Lord even more

 

That is true mate. We'd all rather work less and see more of our kids but for me we should therefore try and appreciate the good times all the more. We still have it a lot better than billions of people who have lived before us throughout history. Although I don't despise anyone to be honest.

I don't see religion as the answer to all the world's problems. The world has always been cruel, unfair, exploitative but things could be far, far worse. And it would be if we did not have shared common experiences.

 

I am not defending religion per se. But I do believe that we need common values and shared experiences for some sort of order to prevail. What those values are is different matter.

 

Martin. I do agree with you that we need something to give us a common bond. I just think religion should not be the number one vocation to help us do this. Mainly for the reasons that I have already stated.

Also Martin I was not just restricting my view on religion´s place in the modern world to the western world. As I am sure you are aware that Islam is the most suported religion in the world today. Without going into the merits of this religion as we will be here all year. Surfice to say this is the only religion in todays world that is trying to convert others on mass as their ultimate goal is to convert everyone to their reliogion. This for me is a very dangerous belief and as they are the biggest religion in terms of numbers then this view has to be taken very seriously.

I also agree with your view that most unrest has been caused because of econmics,power, resorces etcetc. Although where are the majority of these things based at this moment in time. The middle east and obviously this region is obviously mostly Muslim. This is the biggest reason as to why I feel religion is the major problem within todays modern world and because of this it shouldnt be the major factor in uniting us to a common bond.

We need to find other avenues in wich to unite us as human beings as it is not realistic to still follow the beliefs that someone decided to put down on paper a few thousand years ago.

 

I don't think religion is mate. Very few of us actually go to church. Many of our traditions have some root in religion but each passing year the west becomes less religious. Shared values are what give us this bond and these values are reinforced by acting out the traditions, rituals etc. Many things we do in life, probably more than we realise, actually serve to reinforce who we are, what we are, what we are not and what groups we belong to - in short our identity. If other people share similar values and act out similar rituals etc then we have a shared identity.

This is where it gets very tricky. But let's not forget that for centuries Christianity did try and spread itself globally. The Catholic church slaughtered more people than Hitler ever did as it sought to spread it's influence around the world. Personally I believe that the extent to which Islam wants to take over the world is exaggerated. There is no doubt that there is a tiny minority of extremists who do wish to force it on non-Muslims but again I would say that the gripes of the majority of Muslims towards the west are rooted in economic and political power imbalance. People outwith the first world realise that a large part of our political and economic power is based on other countries not having economic and political power. I believe that most people throughout the world would be happy if they were safe, had a decent home and a decent standard of living and that if they had that they would have little desire to hate the west.

The average person in the middle east is very poor compared to the average westerner. The west still rules the world mate. Clearly oil is a big factor in international economic and politics and that is why the west seeks to have influence in this region - to protect it;s economy which would collapse without oil/petrol.

A worthy ideal mate but I struggle to envisage a day when a common universal bond unites the world's population. It is human nature to want more than someone else - to be better off. In order for some people to be 'the haves' someone has to be 'the have nots'.

 

Martin your views are extremely valid and have definatly got me thinking.Most of your points I agree with.

However I am not in line with your views in relation to oil rich states within the middle east. For a start the Saudis have a stronger foothold in the west´s economy than we have in theirs. For instance this is getting stronger as we speak as they have recently aquired a high percentage if not all of our FTSE 100 index,

Also I do understand that their is unrest within these muslim countries. However I dont agree to the point that we the west are keeping these folks as the not haves of the world. For me the fault should be laid squarely at the feet of the dictatorships of these middle eastern countries. They ban anything western from democracy to captalism. Their people are denied the right to choose their path surely this kind of united bond is unhealthy and should not be encouraged.

I also dont agree with you when you say that it is only extreme Islam that want to recruit the world.If you ask any Muslim of the teachings of the Koran in regards to this, if they are honest with you they will all tell you the same thing, that anyone who dosent follow the profit should be punished for their sins. This is the basis that Islam as a religion stands on at all levels extreme or not.Of course like any other faith people have been westernised and of course a lot have distensed themselves from this outlook However the majority of good muslims believe this teaching.

I just feel that we should have a common bond as you sugest. Although we must keep our individual identities as if we dont we may aswell have a Micro chip inserted in our head and have our body,mind and soul run by computers or allow power hungry people to dictate our way of life.