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Celtic deprived of right to realise true potential by club’s birthplace.

Discussion in 'Celtic Chat' started by LoveTheTic88, Mar 28, 2014.

Discuss Celtic deprived of right to realise true potential by club’s birthplace. in the Celtic Chat area at TalkCeltic.net.

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murphy88

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H67 said: ↑

If you look through the history books that will tell you everything you need to know about Celtic struggling in Scotland then dominating in Scotland. This was all done against teams that were good and bad. It will happen in cycles, at present we are on top but in the future other clubs will be our equal and/or better, will people want us to leave the Scottish League then? Celtic struggled in the 30's, 40's, 50's & 90's. But we had great runs in the early 1900's through to the first world war and into the 1920's. During poor years we did have success like the 1937 Scottish Cup win for example or the Empire Exhibition Cup or the Coronation Cup in the early 50's the 7-1 game in 57' then we dominated in the 60's, 70's and 80's along with other clubs. Just remember nothing ever stays the same guys.
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Cracking post.

murphy88, Apr 15, 2014

#221
Paul 1979

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hendycfc said: ↑

This. I've stated before and again how irritating it is seeing Rangers mentioned in the Celtic section of the forum but what makes it even worse is the constant comments after it of 'their dead' or 'who are they'. Aye we get it, can we please just shut the * up about it now as I am sick of seeing/discussing it.
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This... far more articulate than I managed but sums up excatly where I'm coming from...

We get it, you think Rangers died and that's your right, but please stop * ruining almost EVERY thread with the most boring crap possible... There is a thread for those amongst the community on here who have an unhealthy obsession with them.

Paul 1979, Apr 15, 2014

#222
Paul 1979

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ÉireBhoy93 said: ↑

What about a British Cup? If England and Scotland just formed their respective League Cups into one? At least that way we could stay in Scotland and still get to play big English clubs like Liverpool and Manchester Utd in competitive games. And the Scottish game would surely benefit from the TV money generated from those games.
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I'd be very happy with that but it is unlikely to happen as the EPL offers their winners of the League Cup an European place which provides a safety net for clubs who may have unbelieveably bad seasons.

A merged tournement between the two leagues will result in that European place being giving to league position and, as a consequence, the lower ranked EPL teams will not vote for it.

It is clear that we have to join the English league set up completely if we are to entertain any cross-border competition.

Paul 1979, Apr 15, 2014

#223
Sean Daleer Ten Thirty Gold Member

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Paul 1979 said: ↑

This... far more articulate than I managed but sums up excatly where I'm coming from...

We get it, you think Rangers died and that's your right, but please stop * ruining almost EVERY thread with the most boring crap possible... There is a thread for those amongst the community on here who have an unhealthy obsession with them.
Click to expand...

We think they died?

Sean Daleer, Apr 15, 2014

#224
Sean Daleer Ten Thirty Gold Member

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Paul 1979 said: ↑

This... far more articulate than I managed but sums up excatly where I'm coming from...

We get it, you think Rangers died and that's your right, but please stop * ruining almost EVERY thread with the most boring crap possible... There is a thread for those amongst the community on here who have an unhealthy obsession with them.
Click to expand...

You were the one that quoted an almost month old post to talk about them again.

Obsessed. :smiley-laughing002:

Sean Daleer, Apr 15, 2014

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Lion1961 Bookmaker

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Keep all hun chat out of Celtic chat threads please. There is a place to discuss the scum and here isn't it.

Lion1961, Apr 15, 2014

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H67

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Lion1961 said: ↑

Keep all hun chat out of Celtic chat threads please. There is a place to discuss the scum and here isn't it.
Click to expand...

the scum

Hail Hail to that.

Celtic have never been deprived of true potential from were they where born, the only thing that deprived Celtic in the past was the Celtic boards down through the years selling our best players off and you can trace this back to the Maley years too.... Its not just a new thing Celtic have always done this, its in the history books if you want to know.

Buchan after the 1937 Cup Final was sold for about £10k to Blackpool even though he never wanted to go, McGrory was nearly sold to Arsenal by the board he told them to go * themselves and he stood his ground. Just think the history books of Celtic would look very different if Jimmy McGrory had done what he was told by the board of directors back in the day.

H67, Apr 15, 2014

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Random Review

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H67 said: ↑

the scum

Hail Hail to that.

Celtic have never been deprived of true potential from were they where born, the only thing that deprived Celtic in the past was the Celtic boards down through the years selling our best players off and you can trace this back to the Maley years too.... Its not just a new thing Celtic have always done this, its in the history books if you want to know.

Buchan after the 1937 Cup Final was sold for about £10k to Blackpool even though he never wanted to go, McGrory was nearly sold to Arsenal by the board he told them to go * themselves and he stood his ground. Just think the history books of Celtic would look very different if Jimmy McGrory had done what he was told by the board of directors back in the day.
Click to expand...

The use of the words "deprived" and "right" in the thread title is not only innacurate about the present (there is no right to greatness that anyone is depriving us of), it's seemingly also misleading about our history.

Random Review, Apr 15, 2014

#228
Shanks

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Sween said: ↑

I want to move because I want to go to Celtic Park with a fear that we might get a doing if we don't play at 100%. I want to go absolutely mental if we score a last minute winner against a team because that goal might shape our whole season. I want to go home utterly gutted when we lose a game because it was such a significant loss. I want to feel a sense of pride knowing that win, lose, or draw, each player put absolutely everything they had into playing against a bigger club. I want to take pleasure in watching Celtic pump teams who like to think they are bigger than they are.
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Sween, no need to go to England for that feeling, you could get that at Firhill! :smiley-laughing002:

Shanks, Apr 15, 2014

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random review said: ↑

The use of the words "deprived" and "right" in the thread title is not only innacurate about the present (there is no right to greatness that anyone is depriving us of), it's seemingly also misleading about our history.
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Totally agree with all of that.

No idea if this type of talk happens in other countries, Portugal eg I believe only 4 clubs have ever won their league in its history, do the powerhouses like Benfica and Porto drone on about wanting to play in Spain?

Clubs being to coin the phrase "too big for their own league" is hardly unique to Scotland within European Leagues

richardm, Apr 16, 2014

#230
Shanks

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richardm said: ↑

Totally agree with all of that.

No idea if this type of talk happens in other countries, Portugal eg I believe only 4 clubs have ever won their league in its history, do the powerhouses like Benfica and Porto drone on about wanting to play in Spain?

Clubs being to coin the phrase "too big for their own league" is hardly unique to Scotland within European Leagues
Click to expand...

This is true, but the worry is that the larger clubs in the larger leagues will continue to get wealthier and more powerfull, due to the economics of the modern game.
Perhaps, Benfica & Porto would welcome a Euro League?

Shanks, Apr 16, 2014

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H67

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random review said: ↑

The use of the words "deprived" and "right" in the thread title is not only innacurate about the present (there is no right to greatness that anyone is depriving us of), it's seemingly also misleading about our history.
Click to expand...

Bang on.
 It always annoys me when some sections of the Celtic support go on about where we play, who we play and so on. Its like some Celtic fans have this “superiority complex” over others. If it weren’t for other Scottish Clubs and their fans there would be no Celtic.


H67, Apr 16, 2014

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H67 said: ↑

Bang on.
 It always annoys me when some sections of the Celtic support go on about where we play, who we play and so on. Its like some Celtic fans have this “superiority complex” over others. If it weren’t for other Scottish Clubs and their fans there would be no Celtic.

Click to expand...

I was watching the Dundee Utd game and it really got me thinking. I remember in the early 90's when there was a kind of glamour around teams like Dundee Utd and Aberdeen. It was probably left over from the 80's when they were both better than us for long periods of that decade (especially Aberdeen). Indeed Aberdeen were arguably still better than us in the early 90's I guess. Even clubs like Hibs and Hearts seemed like big clubs to me. IMO four things have happened, only two of which we can do nothing about.

1) TV allows us to see megaclubs like Barça, Real Madrid, the two Manchester clubs, Bayern Munich, Dortmund, Chelsea, the two Milan clubs etc on a regular basis. Next to these enormous clubs even we look small, how do clubs like Dundee Utd look? Indeed it is interesting to see even a club like Schalke (who I would say are roughly the same size as us but with a better team) now seem distinctly unglamorous after the CL group stages. It is easy to blame the rise of the glory hunter on the people concerned but actually people are just following football the way they always did. They want to feel a part of something beautiful and bigger than they are. With the modern TV options and unless you are brought up with it as a kid, who is going to choose Dundee Utd (or even Celtic!) over the big EPl/La Liga/Serie A/Bundesliga sides? This is why issues like match atmosphere are so important. Imagine banning Motherwell fans from bringing their drum! If smaller clubs are to survive (and even medium sized ones like ourselves and Sevco), they/we have to provide something that you can't get watching games from the comfort of your armchair. Do you remember the game where the GB had that silent protest in the first half? Remember the carnival atmosphere in the second? If all home games were like that (and tickets are affordable), we'd soon see more people attending. The exact same logic is why political expression at football must not be extinguished. The people running the Scottish game that are trying to kill this don't realise tney are signing their own death warrent. With their marketing strategy of "more than a club" and "Celtic family", much though we quite rightly and very healthily poke fun at their insincerity, at least it's a clear sign that the board are aware of the same problem.

2) The best players are more and more concentrated in a few teams. Nothing we can do about this.

3) Our league has got incredibly uncompetitive. It's a Europewide trend but in Scotland it's reached ridiculous proportions. OK so maybe a full American style shared income model would be unworkable here; but IMO there absolutely has to be at least some income redistribution from ourselves (and eventually Sevco) to smaller clubs in the short term. This isn't charity: we simply cannot flourish as a club if without other Scottish clubs. We need to give these clubs a kickstart to get good enough to reach CL or Europa League group stages and the income to be had there. Here's a suggestion: we offer our teams entering Europa league qualifying the money they would get from the group stages if they qualified but give it to them during the summer so they can strengthen. If they then qualify, they pay us back. If they fail to qualify, we let them keep it. At first glance it looks like giving them a disincentive to qualify (so they could keep the money) but actually it'd still be in their best interests to qualify as they'd earn at least as much as they'd have to pay back, with the additional possibility of prize money if they won any games and of course exposure.

Yes, I know the board would never go for it. I just find it so shortsighted.

4) The Scottish media is actually worse than the Englsh for talking our game down. They're idiots. Nothing much we can do here either.

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Random Review, Apr 16, 2014

#233
Sween

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random review said: ↑

1) TV allows us to see megaclubs like Barça, Real Madrid, the two Manchester clubs, Bayern Munich, Dortmund, Chelsea, the two Milan clubs etc on a regular basis. Next to these clubs even we look small, how do clubs like Dundee Utd look? Indeed it is interesting to see even a club like Schalke (who I would say are roughly the same size as us but with a better team) now seem distinctly unglamorous after the CL group stages. It is easy to blame the rise of the glory hunter on the people concerned but actually people are just following football the way they always did. They want to feel a part of something beautiful andd bigger than they are...

3) Our league has got incredibly uncompetitive. It's a Europewide trend but in Scotland it's reached ridiculous proportions. OK so maybe a full American style shared income model would be unworkable here; but IMO there absolutely has to be at least some income redistribution from ourselves (and eventually Sevco) to smaller clubs in the short term. This isn't charity: we simply cannot flourish as a club if without other Scottish clubs
Click to expand...

I agree with pretty much all of what you say RR. As regards the two paragraphs quoted above:

I would like to hope, perhaps naively, that eventually there will be a movement away from the super clubs and back into a more local set up. I think the super club model is glamorous but soulless and while watching Barca vs Real Madrid is more fun than watching Ross County vs ICT, I think consumers (that is what we are) may eventually reach a tipping point when prices become so much and competition becomes so concentrated. In the same way that winning the Scottish league for the next 20 years sounds dull, watching the same 4 or 5 win the champions league will eventually get dull as well. People may naturally gravitate back to something more meaningful and more attainable.

What I would say however is that Celtic can not really complain too loudly as regards the monopolising of football as we benefitted from it in the late 90s. In Scotland we saw a rise in the support of the big two and a decline across the board in the unglamorous sides. This historical imbalance came about simply because, along with Rangers, we spent more money and won more trophies. than everyone else. Now this is happening at an international level, and we are the small fish in the big sea. Scottish fans can jump on a train down to places like Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, etc, and watch some of the best players in the world, rather than watching Celtic pump local town teams.

As regards the financial imbalance, I sense it will only get worse but I think it will eventually encompass the whole of European football and that will force a more inclusive European set up. There is so much money in the champions league now that a few years finishing bottom in the group stages would generate enough money for most teams from Scotland, Greece, Belgium, Austria, Switzerland, Scandinavia, Cyprus, etc, to utterly dominate their domestic set up for a decade. It will almost inevitably kill competition at a national level as you will have one or two teams from each small nation generating £25+ each year, and the rest generating well less than even half a million. I see no fix other than the creation of a wider European league which will inevitably happen when interest in domestic leagues start to dwindle across Europe.

Sween, Apr 16, 2014

#234
H67

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 I actually despise the champions league and it stinks of double standards and hypocrisy, also far too many fans are blinkered or short sighted in their views. People have become greedy, selfish, and worst of all lack morals. Modern football and modern fans only think about whats good for them instead of looking to find solutions to make the game in Scotland flourish. Celtic as a club cant win, if we struggle fans demand better, if we pump everyone fans want to move to the EPL!!!

How can a club that was founded on charitable ideals to help others turn their back on not just fans that cant afford to support the team now but also stick two fingers up to other clubs in Scotland. How can certain fans of Celtic (If they really know the history) look down on the other clubs and constantly put them down? For me Celtic is about more than winning a cup and simply wanting to become a nomadic club and walk away from where you belong its about a sense of belonging, being part of something and that for me is more important than money.

But sadly some fans simply don’t care enough about the past or what the future would/could possibly be if they got their wish and Celtic became just another ordinary club or a plastic imitation of our true identity.

Hail Hail The Celts are here and here to stay


H67, Apr 16, 2014

#235

Shanks

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The professional league in Scotland IMO is in long term terminal decline, due to the medium of television.
This is nobody's fault, it's just the way it is.
This "decline" is what concerns many, if the league set up stays as it is we shall decline relatively to similar sized clubs in larger leagues.
We need to play more of our football with larger clubs in a larger league set up, preferably an enlarged European set up.
I understand that money has ruined much of the game, however, we are in many respects stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Nevertheless, we are a professional football club and I would love to see us win the top trophy in Europe again.
I think alot of people have made very good points on this thread, with many differing views.
One other point, the Scottish leagues were far better when there were only two divisions!

Shanks, Apr 17, 2014

#236
momosylla86

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H67 said: ↑

 I actually despise the champions league and it stinks of double standards and hypocrisy, also far too many fans are blinkered or short sighted in their views. People have become greedy, selfish, and worst of all lack morals. Modern football and modern fans only think about whats good for them instead of looking to find solutions to make the game in Scotland flourish. Celtic as a club cant win, if we struggle fans demand better, if we pump everyone fans want to move to the EPL!!!

How can a club that was founded on charitable ideals to help others turn their back on not just fans that cant afford to support the team now but also stick two fingers up to other clubs in Scotland. How can certain fans of Celtic (If they really know the history) look down on the other clubs and constantly put them down? For me Celtic is about more than winning a cup and simply wanting to become a nomadic club and walk away from where you belong its about a sense of belonging, being part of something and that for me is more important than money.

But sadly some fans simply don’t care enough about the past or what the future would/could possibly be if they got their wish and Celtic became just another ordinary club or a plastic imitation of our true identity.

Hail Hail The Celts are here and here to stay


Click to expand...

Would you rather we play exclusively in the spfl? Can understand why you disagree with the amount of money etc in the champions league but how you can despise it I don't know? For me these are the only games that get the heart really going now that the others are dead!

Ps Celtic are a Scottish team and belong in Scotland, would rather they play in a * league than selling out to play in a country they don't belong. Euro league idea is interesting though..

momosylla86, Apr 17, 2014

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Sween said: ↑

I agree with pretty much all of what you say RR. As regards the two paragraphs quoted above:

I would like to hope, perhaps naively, that eventually there will be a movement away from the super clubs and back into a more local set up. I think the super club model is glamorous but soulless and while watching Barca vs Real Madrid is more fun than watching Ross County vs ICT, I think consumers (that is what we are) may eventually reach a tipping point when prices become so much and competition becomes so concentrated. In the same way that winning the Scottish league for the next 20 years sounds dull, watching the same 4 or 5 win the champions league will eventually get dull as well. People may naturally gravitate back to something more meaningful and more attainable.

What I would say however is that Celtic can not really complain too loudly as regards the monopolising of football as we benefitted from it in the late 90s. In Scotland we saw a rise in the support of the big two and a decline across the board in the unglamorous sides. This historical imbalance came about simply because, along with Rangers, we spent more money and won more trophies. than everyone else. Now this is happening at an international level, and we are the small fish in the big sea. Scottish fans can jump on a train down to places like Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, etc, and watch some of the best players in the world, rather than watching Celtic pump local town teams.

As regards the financial imbalance, I sense it will only get worse but I think it will eventually encompass the whole of European football and that will force a more inclusive European set up. There is so much money in the champions league now that a few years finishing bottom in the group stages would generate enough money for most teams from Scotland, Greece, Belgium, Austria, Switzerland, Scandinavia, Cyprus, etc, to utterly dominate their domestic set up for a decade. It will almost inevitably kill competition at a national level as you will have one or two teams from each small nation generating £25+ each year, and the rest generating well less than even half a million. I see no fix other than the creation of a wider European league which will inevitably happen when interest in domestic leagues start to dwindle across Europe.
Click to expand...

I think there is a definite bubble element behind the size of some clubs (I agree, Sween, you're right about that applying to us too) and all bubbles burst eventually. The trouble is, you never know if they'll burst in 2 years or 20. When these bubbles start bursting many clubs will be hit very hard, including us. I expect a a painful few years. Thing is, though, we've already taken a lot of our medicine. Attendances are back near their historical average if police figures are to be believed. My guess is permanently. I think we'll lose a lot of our North American fans to the MLS eventually too (we take our Irish and North American fans so much for granted that we can't complain when this happens) and when the CL bubble bursts the last of our medicine will have to be swallowed with the loss of that income.

Out the other end, though. I think we'll return to a much healthier Scottish league. It'll take a few years for teams like Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs, Dundee Utd to start winning leagues again but it'll happen. Who knows, maybe we'll even win the big cup again one day.

Could be 5 years away, could be 50 (in which case I'll not live to see it).

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Random Review, Apr 17, 2014

#238
Random Review

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momosylla86 said: ↑

Would you rather we play exclusively in the spfl? Can understand why you disagree with the amount of money etc in the champions league but how you can despise it I don't know? For me these are the only games that get the heart really going now that the others are dead!

Ps Celtic are a Scottish team and belong in Scotland, would rather they play in a * league than selling out to play in a country they don't belong. Euro league idea is interesting though..
Click to expand...

I think he means he despises the CL as replacement for the old European Cup. I can see where he's coming from. It's not like we didn't have great European nights in the old competition. *, surely the Leeds European Cup semi-final tops anything we've seen in the CL as far as epic nights go.

Random Review, Apr 17, 2014

#239
richardm

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The Champions League is no more than a carve up by the big guns to guarantee at least 6 games a season and bigger income than in the European Cup days when it was not uncommon for big clubs to be dumped out in the first round.

Just the mere fact a team an be European Champions while not being a domestic champion rankles us older fans, I suppose the younger fans don't even question it however.

richardm, Apr 19, 2014

#240

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