Poppy Thread.

Just been talking to one of the GB mates and all over the news saying that the some of the "small minority" will be getting banned out of CP..... If they do.

Put it this way.

It wont be forgotten for the board and especially John Reid.

 

Correct mate ,Its called debating ,Wether someone agree's with your post or not its was debated out well ,its been a hard thread to Mod with all the different views but overall it has went well .

 

Firstly, I certainly won't apologise nor compromise the way that I write in deference to that little jab, which I think was a bit unreasonable, given the esteem we both know any Celtic fan holds Traynor in. In my opinion, that was unfair.

Secondly, the phrase 'let's simplify things' tends to be the final recourse of a faultering argument. You've reduced this complex issue to an emotionally charged question involving heroes of the club. Furthermore, it is COMPLETELY unrelated to the point of my post.

The point I was making was not regarding the rights and wrongs of the Poppy, if you care enough to see what I think on that you can see it in my earlier posts. The point I was making was one regarding the right to autonomy of thought and individual freedom of expression within Celtic Park. In my opinion, the Green Brigade have every right to express their opinion of the Poppy as a blood stained symbol as others do to wear it with pride. The crux comes down to the freedom of individuals to their own opinion within Celtic Park. My post sought solely to argue that and counter the recurring argument that football is not a forum for an opinion, which I think is nonsense.

Finally, to counter your emotionally charged question, I would say they would probably feel as passionately about honouring it as those who had family needlessly slaughtered and tormented by the forces it glorifies feel about criticising it, which includes many in Celtic Park every week. This is a continuum, wherein no amount of aggreessive forum posts will establish a right answer.

At no point have I sought to answer the Poppy issue with a yes or no, all I have sought is to protect the right of free expression. I posted it earlier but I'll post it again, because it rings true in this thread:

"I don't agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it". (Voltaire)

 

The avatar is a mix of celebration to a man who saved our club from extinction, brought back our glory days, built us a new stadium and left us in a good financial state.

He bought the ashes of a pheonix and before he left it had risen from ashes to be a magnificant new life.

Whatever you've over thought about it is wrong and your just being idiotic.

 

So who is this aimed at?

I am frankly digusted to see the number of members on here, especially senior members of these boards, who appear to draw their perception of their own club straight from the pages of media defamations. A sad day.

So everyone of that thinking is too stupid to think for themselves and has just been listening to Chick Young?

 

"free expression " what a lot of tosh ! where does it end then? there are plenty asians supporting celtic these days. what if they start to bring in banners supporting osama bin laden. suppose thats fine too?? the green brigade can have their opinion all they want, they just dont need to ram it down everyones throat. they are classed as celtic fans and its reported as celtic fans that have held up the banner! that is wrong! it only takes 1 celtic fan to throw a coin and hit a ref and the whole celtic support is classed as thugs. in the same case it only takes a small group of celtic fans to unfurl a banner and the whole celtic support is classed as having this opinion. that is what is so wrong with this. there is a time and place for this kind of protest and celtic park definetly isnt it.

 

This is a statement, and after this I will not be on this thread again.


The Green Brigade are just the smartest * tools in the shed aren't they.
Celtic should not be apologising, when it's the GB who should, for disgracing the club like this.
Celtic banned poppy-sellers to protect themselves because they knew A LOT of fans would voice their opinions on the matter.
M grandfather went to war, and never returned. Everyone of you scum (the word my catholic gran used when describing everyone involved) who were apart of this, are disrespecting my grandfather, the tens of thousands of Scots who died and many Celtic fans.
I am a Celtic fan for the FOOTBALL , not for the religious beliefs because I am not, and definitly not for all this Pro-IRA and Anti-British *.
Do I hate some people on this forum? Of Course.
Are there people I agree with? Of Course.
The fact of the matter is when you disrespect our club, your showing the world, what type of people we are. Thanks GB, you really know how to * * up for us.

 

There is a fundamental difference between criticism of a view and outlawing of a view. I have criticised the view that the GB's banner was disgraceful, I have never sought to outlaw it. The view that the Poppy is out of keeping with Celtic's traditions and a slight on our history is not only being criticised, but it is being outlawed. Criticise all you want, but never forbid the expression of an opinion, that was my point.

Please, please do not put words in my mouth either, it is one of the lowest forms of argument. I never mentioned anything about people being stupid, did I? What I said is that I believe those advocating the introduction of a totalitarian censoring of the opinions which are allowed within Celtic Park are being influenced by the current media pressure and the potential unpleasentness that brings as a Celtic fan around remembrance day. My point is that if that does apply (and I accept I may be wrong, but I find it hard to figure out why else you would condone the restriction of free speech within the club) then the individuals in question are being irresponsible with the traditions and foundations of our club.

 

why should it be ok to protest in celtic park?? its a football ground were we all go to watch our team. the only protests that should be allowed is team or club related. everything else has no place there. yes you can have your free speech but it has no place at celtic park ! THE END..

 

Given that it is 1.30am and I have work in the morning, I can't be bothered going into the intricacies of 'Freedom of Expression', but if you genuinely are interested you can find the structure behind this phrase in the European Convention of Hunman Rights, Article 10. You will find, quite clearly, that what the Green Brigade did falls within the remit of 'Free Expression', whereas the hypothetical example you have given would probably not. As for the argument that they do not need to ram their idea down people's throat, they would argue I am sure that the Poppy, now emblazoned onto Celtic tops aswell as omnipresent in society, is enforced to a much greater degree. Each coin has two sides, and if you wish to express support, you must be willing to accept criticism, no?

 

If you look at my post a few back mate, I stated why the argument that football and politics are utterly seperate entities holds no water with me. !

 

your argument means nothing ! there is no place for it!

 

That's your opinion and you're of course entitled to it (the point of my argument throughout this whole thread!) I disagree, and think that the day football and sport as a whole, loses the capacity to mean 'mes que un club', more than just part of the entertainment industry, but be a symbol for a greater idea, be that racial equality or political autonomy we have lost the spark which made it special. Each to their own though.

 

Best reaction to the banner I heard was from a Hun mate - said that the banner didn't make him think less of the Celtic support, but more that he felt ashamed to be from the West of Scotland. Had to say, I agree'd wholeheartedly. A fair but strong appraisal I felt, considering that it could have opened a pandora's box of bigoted to-and-fro's.

People here are talking about 'Britain's wars' etc... (a valid point of discussion, especially among republicans like most of us here). But let me pose a hypothetical question to everybody - If you found out that our 'British' players such as Gary Hooper or Joe Ledley had siblings in the British army, or indeed had siblings killed in Iraq or Afghanistan, would you all flock to the message boards to offer your cyber condolences, or would you say * em' they are 'blodstained murderers'!!!!!!????????

....Something tells me, these guys would receive a lot of support and sympathy on here. The kind of support and sympathy that is the very essence of wearing a poppy. You think the GB would hang banners that said 'We like you guys, but we hope your brothers burn in * for their warcrimes'???? I think not.

End of the day, I will wear a poppy as a symbol of my respect for young men and women that have died whilst having no say in what wars their country has entered into.

When I wear a poppy, I do not see it as betraying my republican heritage or showing support for the Black n' Tans or anybody of that ilk.

In conclusion, I believe in free speech, but I also believe in a) a sense of decency and empathy, b) a sense of perspective, and c) Celtic having the right to protect their own reputation.

 

Used to be on here years ago, mate. A lot of good people have drifted away from TC as the nonsense grew. I just felt compelled to come back and say my peice.

With respect, you can't get around the fact that you clearly stated it that, in your opinion, it would be proper for the hoops to carry the poppy at CP and that, also in your opinion, the banners were unsuitable for CP.

How can those two positions be reconciled unless you deliberately disregard the significance of one display as opposed to the other? Are only people who have your particular veiwpoint allowed to be offended and not victims/opponents of UK Forces actions?

Both are provocative, I agree, and I voted for option three in the poll. But remember, deliberate offence was caused, maybe not for you but for many, by bringing the propaganda of today's poppy symbol to CP. Make no mistake this was a calculated move by some forces at the very top of Celtic, making a PR/propaganda statement, likely in cahoots with other bodies we can only surmise. It only adds insult to injury that we see fellow tims who were silent on that issue, now preach that what's good for the goose is in no way good enough for the gander.

My own personal stance is that the banners were hamfisted but that it was right to speak out in the same form and at the same venue, given the hypocritical precedent was now set at a supposedly apolitical CP!

The greater wrong is in the untruth that the Poppy still exclusively embodies the spirit of WW2 veterans who were essentially battling for their existence when it factually represents the veterans of approx 60 wars and has in recent times essentially become misappropriated to legitimise the more recent disgraces of the North, Afghanistan and Iraq.

I don't think any reasonable person could object to those assertions. The poppy is not apolitical. Not now, and especially not in an environment such as CP.

If others see the wars as more heroic than shameful, or genuinely believe they are only giving to vets from ww2, then good luck to them, buy a poppy. But the entire saga has festered due to a very poor choice, guided by political expediency, to do exactly what some are complaining about with regards to the protest, putting words in the mouths of the whole Celtic family in terms of support for the poppy symbol via having them on the hoops, knowing full well the attitudes of, I would guess, at least half of us.

How can that be right, by any stretch of the imagination? Not only that, but it has all become compounded by the sad sight of having some fellow tims clearly missing the hypocricy and siding with the usual suspects when they start flogging us again, almost bearing the hallmarks of attrition... "they've done it so many times now they must be right, so I'll go along with that."

I hope some will become more enlightened as to why it has rankled. The sheer hypocrisy, nothing else really, not for me bringing that symbol to essentially represent the Celtic family after telling us for the past number of years to pipe down with many of our own beliefs .. and I'll tell you something now: in my opinion there is now more general parity of esteem and mutual understanding existing in the once festering North of Ireland - coming from light years behind- than there now exists in Scottish society gauging by the sinister agendas that continue on this issue.

They couldn't have engineered it any better, but follow blindly if you so wish.

John Reid, if you vigorously pursue the creation apolitical Celtic Park, then that means free from your politics also.

 

Absolutely behind the Green Brigade.

i am * sick of the club being such a weak spineless apologee for political correctness continually. Why are they so overly-concerned with making everything apolitical?

It's an attempt to dilute the club's identity - sanitise it.

Well i am sorry but i do not want to support some * politically-correct bullshit club, why can't we have an identity and form that ourselves, rather than just being dull because we're scared.

pathetic.

 

Oh the blind irony!! Listen, I am no friend of lowlifers, like people who wish to lie drinking buckfast all day instead of work, then go and misspell a banner misrepresenting our opposition to hypocrisy, but do you not see the blatant irony?

How about:

there are plenty British supporting celtic these days. what if they start to bring in poppies (on the shirts themselves!! ) supporting todays wars and also crimes in N Ireland? suppose thats fine too?? John Reid, Rupert Murdoch and Army families can have their opinion all they want, they just dont need to ram it down everyones throat.

it only takes a small group of celtic shirts with poppies and the whole celtic support is classed as having this opinion. that is what is so wrong with this. there is a time and place for this kind of protest and celtic park definetly isnt it


I can't understand the false righteousness that tried to catch the train after it left the station. Are some people truly defending others sensibilities? All of them, or just the ones that are popular in mainstream Scottish media, or just incase you might get outnumbered in the workplace? How many of you spoke out on the equal offense caused to people through the political symbol of poppies on celtic shirts, after being told for years to reign in their own politics?

I wish there was some consistency, that's all.

 

After seeing all that has unfurled today i have come to the conclusion that all the gb has achieved is to drive a massive wedge between the support. Their actions have taken every bit of attention away from the problems with the sfa and brought shame upon the club. For all they have added to atmosphere in the past they have really showed everyone what they are all about. It all boils down to gaining attention through protesting about everything and anything.They should concentrate on having consideration for their fellow man and live happier lives rather than have a rather large chip on their shoulder.

They also seem to have some sort of superiority complex where they see themselves as the ultimate Celtic supporter or better than the average. Afterall they appear to be giving the impression that they are representing the general consensus of the fans which is utter nonsense.

I used to like some of their banners. The Scotland's shame being the main one but after their latest showing i have lost all respect. I can give no respect to those that show intolerance and no consideration to the other fans thoughts and feelings. They just went ahead with it with the sole intention of causing offence. Those tactics should be left to the knuckle draggers.

I genuinely thought our support was more evolved than certain other teams. I thought we were moving forward and leaving the past behind but after seeing some of the things some people are saying today i have to question if some of our fans are any better than the other bitter fans. Their thoughts and views appear to stem from direct retaliation to the fact that rangers supporters are more supportive of the army. I'd hazard a guess that many have to google the reasons as to why they disagree with the wearing of a poppy. It's just pathetic in my opinion. How people have the cheek to say someone who has no problem with the poppy is less of a Celtic fan should just grow up a bit. Life is too short to hold grudges.

If people have a grudge due to personal experience then they have every right to make a stand and be noticed but too many are just jumping on the bandwagon to fit in and be part of the elitist support.

I personally think the club are right to ban those that disgrace the club. At the end of the day Celtic is a football team. Politics or protests against wars have NOTHING to do with football unless it directly affects the team. They are entirely entitled to their opinion but have no right whatsoever to bring it to a football ground and force their opinions on others.Many of whom don't agree yet get tarred by the same brush by all and sundry

 

this time of year has,over the last couple of seasons, left me increasingly saddened. yes the GB have every right to object to the poppy appeal for whatever reasons, wether it is for a stance against current conflicts or based on historical differences,but i do believe it should be kept from the football ground. likewise i also believe that the silences have no place at the football grounds the country over. the whole thing has taken on a political stance that it never used to carry and that imo should remain a personnal thing. i have studied at great length the period from 1914-1945 and choose to wear a poppy to commemorate the "civilians" who were called up to do their "duty" in either the imperial folly that was ww1 or the noble crusade that was ww2. however, if you choose to participate in rememberance it should be left to 11 o clock on rememberance sunday, it has no place at football. likewise, now that it appears to be thrust upon us i would appeal to those who protest to show the common sense to not bring the bad publicity that these protests bring on the club and find other avenues to vent their objections.

 

My objection to the latest debacle at Parkhead is the reaction to protest. It is an inalienable right to protest. Secondly the reaction by Celtic is not a surprise. My memory serves me well in remembering that John Reid supported the illegal War in Iraq. He also was the same gentleman who opposed the smoking ban in Northern Ireland whilst secretary of state because the common man has to have some comfort in his miserable life. The poopy has become a symbol to browbeat the rest of us to support the war in Iraq. Lastly the most objectionable aspect of the poopy is the revisionist historical associations. The 1st World War was not a war against fascism, it was a war about imperialism. Fascism in Germany was fostered after the 1st World War. The 1st World War was a travesty and the British, French and Russians were as much to blame as the Germans. The fact is the Poppy is a political statement and the gentlemen who have been banned from Parkhead had every right to protest at its fascist imposition. This week every celtic supporter should stand with his back to the pitch in protest at Celtic's draconian response.