The British Army (rotten)

There's your original quote there mate. From that, given that the wars are taking place in the countries that the British army are fighting, then the enemy to get 'pummeled' must be the locals of that region. Iraqi's in Iraq, Afghans in Afghanistan.

I don't think any killing of innocent people is right mate. Whether its the IRA, USA, British soldiers or a random on the street doing the killing its wrong. Thats my only logic, thats why this thread was started.

The situations that the British army are involved in now in Iraq and Afghanistan are just as shameful if not worse than the situation in Ireland. You don't feel ashamed of the death and destruction the Iraqi people have suffered and continue to suffer because of the invasion by your country?

Heres the death toll for civilian deaths in Iraq since your country decided to invade.....

US publishes Iraq civilian death toll - Scotland on Sunday

Iraq Body Count

over 100,000 humans dead!

Are you not ashamed of that because you are British?

I'm just wondering at your logic mate, * me your even trying to justify the fact that were only over there for the oil

 

There seems to be a propensity to law the blame of the faults of the UK and American governments squarely at the feet of their armies. Soldiers are tools, used by governments to forward their aims. I'd class myself as a patriot and I 100% support the actions of our armed forces, regardless of where they're serving. The reasoning behind their deployment should be debated with politicians, not soldiers, airmen or sailors. Now, despite my patriotism and support for the forces, I do not for one second agree with the abuse of prisoners and those guilty of abuse should be punished as to the letter of the law.

Having read wanmadtim's comments I know exactly where he's coming from, but on the flipside I agree with Croydon Tim's summary of army life, having heard from my brother what happened in the Marines. I'm not justifying bullying but army life has been rife with bullying from it's inception and I can't ever see that changing. The weak in every walk of life will always be victimised, it's inevitable. What we're seeing more of now is a result of so many kids growing up in single parent families (ususally with no father) and overall society's moral compass has become skewed and violent behaviour is far more readilly accepted today than it would have been 20 or 30 years ago.

Society has been gradually dumbed down and is still being "numbed" down to see violence as the norm and debate as something out of the ordinary. The young in UK are not stupid and know their opportunities are being limited year on year. The nanny state in the UK makes sure a pregnant 16yr old girl will get a house and decent benefits so what incentive is there to take birth control and try to get into University? Likewise young lads see few long term job opportunites and a future that involves working from Mon - Fri to make enough to get blitzed out of their brains all weekend and then start the cycle all over again. The armed forces are one of the last bastions where a poorly educated person can actually make something of themselves but when the peer pressure is relentlessly applied it doesn't matter how strong willed an individual is, in most cases he or she will succumb to the group mentality and that's what we're witnessing time and time again.

I should add.....our society's moral guidelines have historically been set by political and religious leaders, but some of the individuals who have been in control of the UK's government, religious institutions and courts in recent years have been criminals who in years gone by would have seen themselves in gaol for a * long time. We see these people with their noses in the trough and flippantly flouting the law time and time again and naturally we wonder why we can't behave the way they do. It's inherrent and a disease and it's spreading!

 

Disgraceful thing to say.

 

bobm1967 here here m8

 

What exactly is disgraceful about supporting the armed forces of my country?

Surely you're intelligent enough to distinguish blame and appropriate it to where it should lie.

 

You said you support them and their actions 100%.......alot of their actions are disgusting.

 

Yes I do, I support the actions of my country's military because I firmly believe in them and what they stand for.

I'll make this as clear as I can.

I don't support the actions of abusers or torturers or criminals within or out with the armed forces and I certainly don't support the actions of the politicians who sent our forces into war, but I'll support the forces till the last breath I have as they're doing a job in horrible circumstances, without a cohesive plan and without the correct support and equipment.

 

Ok you are making yourself a bit more clear now.
See,to start you said you supported them 100% and their actions......that sounded to me like you supported the murderers amoung the brit forces...and that is why i said it was a disgrace to support their actions 100%.

Will you tell me what you believe the military stand for?

 

No offence FTB but this is the best way the government got round the whole illegal invasion issue - they just went ahead & did it.

Even the Tories & most of all the opposition parties opposed the invasion, but once "we" were in - they pretty much all to a man (Robin Cook & Claire Short excepted, cabinet * minister resignations, both Real Labour BTW) ended out "Supporting the Boys".

I understand what your saying & clearly a lot of people think the same - it seems a lot of people are against war, until we're at war.

Governments are aware of this & even after all the hullabaloo & anti-war marches held throughout the country, Dr. Kelly's "suicide", the lies about WMD's etc... people are still rolling out the (no offence mate) Support the boys *.

The best way I see to support the boys, is to get them the * out of illegal wars & get them back home to their families in one piece.

peace.

 

Bob, you're slanting this debate towards the situation and history in N.I and it's unfair. We won't agree on what happened in NI and there was horrific acts perpetuated by both sides so it's best we leave it at that.

I support the military as a body, 100% and nothing will make me waiver from that. They stand for the defense of the UK and it's allies. Now, I know you're going to come back with something regarding illegal wars etc, but this is what I've been trying to get at....differentiate and proportion blame to where it she be focused and it's certainly NOT at the armed forces, unless you support a coup de grace which is more than slightly unrealistic.

The armed forces of almost every democracy in the world (if not them all) are at the bidding of their political masters. Nothing much will change that whether you'd like to or not.

 

Im not putting any slant on this,im speaking from experience and therefor speaking the truth......in my eyes the british army are rotten.

 

None taken hairytoes, we're all entitled to our opinion and this is a healthy debate

I didn't say I supported the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq, I stated that I support the military 100%. Maybe I wasn't clear enough or some who read the post didn't fully understand what I was saying. I was against both wars from the start and I'm not even for these wars now. What happened with politicians flipping their views didn't surprise me one bit. To a man and woman they are all moralising whoremongers who will happily sell their souls to whichever lobbyist ensures the best deal for them.

By the way, I do agree with your last statement. I'd bring them all home tomorrow. We have no business being in Iraq or Afghanistan, especially when the real threat comes from Iran, but when all is said and done, I still believe our military is fundamentally sound and that they should have the support of us all. The scenes in Luton recently when muslims were abusing homecoming soldiers with shouts of "murders" and "baby killers" were outrageous in my opinion and I couldn't believe I was witnessing it.

We've been sucked into not one, but two Vietnams with absolutely no end game and no plan to get there. It's been a catalogue of serial political * ups, needless and mindless political interference and the list is endless and this is all in the name of money and nothing else.

Nothing surprises me anymore about the UK's politicians. Any government which can cut a trade deal and send a convicted murdered of 280 people home as part of the deal are lower than scum as far as I'm concerned.

 

Then we'll leave it at that, your opinion is yours and you're fully entitled to it mate

 

I agree that the politicians have a lot to answer for, but I can't agree that the military are beyond reproach for as long as they do what they're told.

I'm one of those people who believe the gas chamber operators were morally responsible for the lives of the people they killed. The fact they were ultimately instructed to do so by Hitler and Goebbels does not excuse them from moral responsibility, as the Nuremberg judges were at pains to point out.

Same goes for the British Army in Asia. If a soldier kills another human being, he remains a killer, wherever his instructions came from.

 

More than a bit extreme using the Nazis and gas chambers as an analogy

 

I think most of us agree its the politicians that have a case to answer for not the underfunded ill equiped servicemen at the front line

 

Politicians dont pull the trigger that murder innocents.

 

Well, I used it because Nuremberg was the highest-profile example in the last 100 years where individual responsibility during warfare was examined.

I certainly don't mean to draw a moral comparison between the actions of our troops and the actions of the gas chamber operators. The analogy is in the general principle: whatever I do under instruction from someone else is still my action, and I'm still the one doing it.

 

Hey Bob its not the soldiers that decide where they are going thats the job of our corrupt politicians , Another poor serviceman has died in Afghanistan today so I think we should all show respect for the guys family

 

I know what you were doing mate, still a little sad and too dramatic to bring the Nuremberg trials into it.

We all know any armed forces has bad servicemen who commit illegal acts. No-one is surely niave enough to think an army of say 80,000 troops will all act within the letter of the law. The bottom line is that the army are the ones taking the fall for the illegal acts of politicians. Blame should not be laid at their door for wars that are illegal or for the illegal acts of their masters. To say the British Army is "rotten" is simplistic and generalistic in it's most extreme forms and downright wrong.