The British Army (rotten)

UK army 'rotten', Iraq probe told

BBC NEWS | UK | UK army 'rotten', Iraq probe told



Baha Mousa and his family. Mr Mousa's sons were left orphaned after his death

British soldiers who abused an Iraqi detainee who died in their custody were not just "a few bad apples", a public inquiry has been told.

There was "something rotten in the whole barrel", Rabinder Singh QC said.

Troops in Iraq routinely used banned interrogation methods they did not think were illegal, lawyers told the inquiry into the 2003 death.

The inquiry, led by Sir William Gage, is focusing on Baha Mousa's death, detainees' treatment and army methods.

Mr Singh, counsel for Mr Mousa's family and the other Iraqis detained alongside him, said: "This case is not just about beatings or a few bad apples.

"There is something rotten in the whole barrel."

TIMELINE OF KEY EVENTS

14 Sep 2003 Baha Mousa and nine other Iraqis arrested at Haitham Hotel in Basra by members of the 1st Battalion The Queen's Lancashire Regiment

16 Sep 2003 Mr Mousa dies in British army custody in Iraq with multiple injuries
30 April 2007 Cpl Donald Payne jailed for a year and dismissed from the Army for inhumanely treating civilian detainees

27 March 2008 MoD admits breaching the human rights of Mr Mousa and others

14 May 2008 Defence Secretary Des Browne announces public inquiry to be held into Mr Mousa's death

10 July 2008 MoD agrees to pay £2.83m compensation to mistreated detainees

13 July 2009 Public inquiry begins in London

Q&A: Baha Mousa inquiry

His comments came as legal teams for key parties were allowed to read statements to the inquiry.

It has already heard of the abuse Mr Mousa and his fellow detainees suffered.

A short video showing Cpl Donald Payne shouting obscenities at the hooded Iraqi prisoners calling them "apes" has also been played.

In 2007, Cpl Payne was jailed for a year and dismissed from the Army after being convicted of war crimes charges related to the death.

On Monday, Mr Singh told the inquiry: "The official version of events was that nothing on that video was in fact illegal.

"What we saw was a soldier trying to implement official policy, forcing detainees to get back into stress positions when they were clearly moaning and unable to maintain those positions.

"They are all shown hooded, again in accordance with orders, again illegally."

Hotel arrest

Mr Mousa and nine other civilians were arrested at a Basra Hotel on 14 September 2003 by soldiers from the former Queen's Lancashire Regiment who found weapons on the premises.

Staff insisted the weapons were kept for security, but they were taken to a detention centre at the Battle Group Main camp, under suspicion of being insurgents.

Two days later Mr Mousa was dead. A post-mortem examination showed he suffered asphyxiation and had at least 93 injuries to his body, including fractured ribs and a broken nose.

Lawyer Phil Shiner: "Baha Mousa was a father of two young children, now sadly orphans"

Mr Singh said: "One of the striking features of the terrible events is that the abuse did not take place in a secret location behind closed doors.

"The temporary detention facility (TDF) was open to the outside. Many people must have seen or heard what was going on. Many seem to have visited the TDF.

"This gives rise to serious questions about the professionalism of the outfit and whether the culture was one of impunity, [and] about the capacity of the regiment's members to question and challenge abuse."

Convicted war criminal

A six-month court martial saw seven soldiers facing war crimes charges relating to Mr Mousa's death.

In April 2007, all but Cpl Payne, 36, were cleared on all counts at Bulford Camp in Wiltshire.

He became the UK's first convicted war criminal under the International Criminal Court Act.


The brutality was completely unacceptable. It has stained the reputation of the British army

In July 2008 the MoD agreed to pay £2.83m in compensation to the families of Mr Mousa and the nine other detainees.

David Barr, counsel for the Ministry of Defence, said the "appalling" behaviour of British soldiers in the case "disgusted" the Army.

He told the inquiry: "It is with huge regret that the Ministry of Defence acknowledges the way in which some of those techniques were used on Baha Mousa and those detained with him.

"The brutality was completely unacceptable. It has stained the reputation of the British army."

Public apology

Cpl Payne's barrister, Michael Topolski QC, said the former soldier hoped the inquiry would provide a "clearer and fuller picture" of events.

Mr Topolski said: "Donald Payne has accepted and he does accept that he violated his duty to those detainees.

"For that, through us, now without hesitation he wishes to publicly apologise to each of them and in particular to the family of Baha Mousa."

The inquiry later adjourned for the day and will reconvene at 1000 BST on Wednesday when the first witness will be Mr Mousa's father.

 

I wonder if a murder charge is being brought?

Jailed for 1 year & dismissed from the Army, a man who must be presumed innocent - as no trial was held is dead, whilst in custody.

Stinks.

 

Not much changes then eh.

Rotten indeed.

 

Shower of * the biritsh army. I love reading papers some times, the allied deaths are 2, maybe 3 thousand...hmmm times that by 100 and it might not be even be close to the civilian deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq, anyone thats joined the army and died since the beginning of this war for me is just silly, this * is worse than Vietnam which thankfully "we" werent involved in.

That article is heartbreaking. No wonder people in the middle east try and blow * up over here, we do the same over there, just less publicised.

 

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/Scotland39s-top-soldier-quits-army.5678654.jp

Scotland's top soldier quits army in protest


Published Date: 25 September 2009
By Stephen McGinty
GENERAL Andrew Mackay, one of the British Army's most senior commanding officers, has dramatically resigned his post over "dissatisfaction" with the government's handling of the Armed Forces.

The head of the army in Scotland, northern England and Northern Ireland, Gen Mackay is said to have become increasing angry at the perceived lack of resources and commitment to the war in Afghanistan.

He announced his resignation from the army yesterday just three months into his new three-year posting.

While he would not be drawn officially on the reason, The Scotsman has learned that he is "dissatisfied" with government plans for the army and the handling of the war in Afghanistan.

Last night, a friend of the general said: "He does not rate Gordon Brown or believe that he understands the needs of Afghanistan. He liked Blair, he believed Blair got it, but is angry at what he sees is a lack of support to the army."

It was unclear last night what other factors had contributed to the general's decision. However, it is understood that it may also be connected with internal restructuring.

Last night, Nick Haston, a former major and deputy chief of staff for 52 Brigade, who served with Gen Mackay in Afghanistan, said: "There is a general malaise in the army at the moment over resources and the Afghanistan campaign.

"I would suggest there are other factors, but that (the "malaise"] would be a contributing factor. The fact that he has chosen to resign in so short a period into a three-year tenure post means that he is dissatisfied with something. He would not have done that without being dissatisfied.

"In my opinion – and part of the reason that I left – is that there is a general malaise in the army where good people are going because of current policy, resource issues and political ignorance over the situation in Afghanistan. His reasons will be related in some way to that. It will not be the whole reason."

As head of Taskforce Helmand, the commander of all British forces in Afghanistan in late 2006 and 2007, Gen Mackay pioneered a new approach to combating the Taleban.

Upon his return, he denounced the British government's strategy in Afghanistan as a "constant muddling through" and described how they were "making it up as we go along".

While he was in Afghanistan, Gen Mackay sent a memo to London that warned of a "grave crisis" looming on the eve of the battle for Musa Qala, concerning equipment that was "tired, limited and failing regularly".

According to brigade staff, only a fifth of the heavy machine guns needed were available, and only half of the required WMIK Land Rovers had been supplied.

British soldiers only had half the chance of an American soldier to be equipped with night-vision goggles. Many of the ageing Scimitar tanks were not working, and those that were could not go into reverse gear.

Other leading military figures have spoken out recently over the government's handling of the war, as the British death toll continues to rise. On Monday, the death of Michael Lockett, 29, of Monifeith, in Angus, took the total to 217 since the start of operations in 2001, compared with 137 by the end of 2008.

The previous head of the army, General Sir Richard Dannatt, issued the Ministry of Defence with a shopping list of demands over the summer, including more troops and helicopters. And Sir Jock Stirrup, Chief of the Defence Staff, said more helicopters would save lives, contradicting the Prime Minister.

Former defence secretary John Hutton, who quit his post in June, has said Britain's military presence needs "more logistical support"

and stated the mood among troops on the ground was "unequivocal" on the need for more manpower and protection from roadside bombs.

Earlier this month, Falkirk MP Eric Joyce, an aide to armed forces minister Bob Ainsworth, quit his post in protest at the government's policy on Afghanistan, saying it needed to get a "grip" on defence.

Clive Fairweather, a former SAS deputy commander and counter-terrorist expert, said of Gen Mackay: "As his former commanding officer, I'm shocked. He is a first-class soldier and very approachable."

A spokeswoman for the army said last night: "We can confirm that General Mackay has tendered his resignation."

In a statement, Gen Mackay said: "I have resigned and I don't wish to make any further comment."

CV

At 52, General Andrew Mackay was one of the army's oldest operational commanders, in charge of more than 7,000 troops from 52 Infantry Brigade in Afghanistan.

Famously commanding from a foxhole during 2007's decisive battle for Musa Qala, Mackay was so close to the front line that bodyguards had to open fire to protect him.

He was initially rejected by army recruiting officers, and joined the Royal Hong Kong Police, rising to the rank of inspector before joining the army.

He gained a reputation as someone unafraid to challenge the status quo and dictate orders back up the chain of command

 

good thread,,,yes indeed they are rotten *!

 

I happen to believe that we should not be involved in these two conflicts because of the biggest scam in history - 9/11 (the only 2 steel and concrete buildings to collapse because of fire in history - oh and it took them 9.8 seconds to collapse which is faster than gravity!)

anyway - The British Army

several members of my family have served in the armed forces - in the eyes of some that makes them "rotten *"

do you remember the first conflict in the Gulf in 1991 one of the british hostage soldiers was interviewed from his hospital bed after his release and he had a huge C E L T I C F C tattoo across his chest. What is he?

We cant condone the actions of some members of the forces who indulge in sick torture and murder - a whole section of scum society in the UK indulge in this behaviour every Friday and Saturday night if they decide someone is looking at them the wrong way - however please remember the beheading of innocent journalists and soldiers who have been captured by equally barbaric murderers who are not easy to identify.

It is common place for Celtic supporters (particularly of a young age) to ritually abuse the armed forces, if they check they will probably find most of their great grandparents served. I too have republican views, but with experience and maturity comes perspective.

there are a great many serving members of the armed forces who are Celtic fans and there are a great many ex servicemen who support Celtic. We are a welcoming club to ALL. If not then we are no better than the huns......................

Those involved in the case highlighted above should be dealt with properly but do not refer to fellow Celtic fans in a derogatory fashion - we are better than that

 

Some people in the army are scum but I know a few people in it and you can't call the full army scum because a few people let them down. Think what they done is shocking but, seems to be happening more and more these days.

 

that was another point I was trying to make, it is happening more because of the lawless, no respect, no deterrent and distinct lack of intelligent society we have bred and positively encouraged since Labour sold their souls to the devil in 1997 and tried to become all things to all men.

society is in the gutter and a whole generation from their early teens to late 20's have absolutely no moral compass and even allowing for thugs from all generations there is not a proper penal system to deter these maniacs now.

we have bred an attitude of "yeah, you dont like what I am doing - * off!"

it is too late now, we are all doomed to put up with these purveyors of mediocrity and trash. the only thing you can do now is make sure your own family do not join in the downward spiral and help them aspire to gain access to rightful success and a first class existance

to all the murderers, we should put them all on an island and let them eliminate themselves

 

Hate the sight of the British Army to be honest.

Suppose it depends on where you live and your experiences with the Brits.

 

Did John Smith "really" have a heart attack & die of "natural causes"?

Funny, how just before the biggest landslide in UK political history, that a working class Scotsman with good family values & leader of the opposition (soon to be government), died & in came a private school educated leader & a "NEW" Labour party - who went on to propigate what you describe above.

Peace.

 

Cant let this one go !

I spent 22 years in the Army - rotton to the core is dead right. Without going overboard or getting fanatical about things, you can't imagine the amount of bullying, racism and sheer outight thuggery that goes on in the ranks.

I managed to get to Sergeant through honesty, integrity and sheer hard work. But I could have been promoted further had I under orders involved myself in the kind of nonsence described above.

And its not just these places, I was in 1984 - 2006 and so saw time in the 6 counties, Besbrooke Barracks, Red Zones of Newry etc, done shifts in the Balkans and all over the world. Bizzarely the worst I saw was my 2 years in a recruiting office in Scotland (am I allowed to name dates/places ?) where the spiel read out to these young lads trying to get these young lads to join the army, well it beggered belief at times. If I was to put it in the written format, it would be instantly dismissed as too far fetched - it really couldnt be made up the spiel was so rediculous.

So in answer to this thread, yes mate, The British Army is rotton to the core. Dont get me wrong some good guys out there, but I've seen first hand the bullying, racism etc and its not pleasant.

Dont get me started on the army and my being a fanatical Celtic supporter either, how many times was I interviewed by the Intelligence Corps, yet trying to get the transcripts back under the Data Protection Act - well they simply didnt happen.

 

What do you expect?

All armies have some rotten people its just how it is.

They are trained to kill

 

How can you say the Brittish army is rotten to the core , They are no better or worse than any other army , How would you feel if you had seen friends killed or wounded ? Its only human for a bit of divine retribution its not right but it goes on .
Its like a full house at paradise there is always a few nutters there . Those incidents should never happen but unfortunately they do and if anyone breaks the rules they should suffer the consequences

 

I didn't say they are 'rotten' mate.

I posted an article where Rabinder Singh QC was quoted in saying that british soldiers who abused an Iraqi detainee who died in their custody were not just "a few bad apples" but rather there was "something rotten in the whole barrel".

Since then we have a guy on Croydon Tim, who after serving 22 years in the mentioned Army, confirms what Rabinder Singh had said and more.

This issue really worries me as I know a few young guys including my young sisters boyfriend who are in the process of joining the army.

They believe that theres * all here for them and that the army would give them a better life to which I disagree and have tried to persuade them otherwise.

Thanks to Croydon Tim for your post mate, I'll be sure to show it to these young guys who think the Army is a good life choice. They to me could be easily bullied, meaning they are quiet young guys who don't like confrontation much.

 

The problem is the govertment will not provide the resources for theese guys to do their job properly , I personally think we should not have been in Iraq or Afghanistan as its Americas war not ours , I honestlyy believe the majority of our forces are decent people just doing a job

 

A lot of people who sign up are good people mate, thats a fact. They think they are doing the right thing or whatever but the thing is once your in there you are not your own person, so therefor them being good people doesn't really matter when they are ordered to kill does it? They are there to do as they are told by their superiors and whatever it is they are told must be done without question.

With regard to the Government not giving them the right tools to do the job, I say it kinda evens out the fight a little bit. Take that as you will.

 

I dont think you can say putting people in the millitary makes them bad people , Its like life the majority are good but there is a bad minority and like life you generally only hear bad things about people as it makes good tv and sells papers , We should all focus on the good instead of focussing on the bad points on life , Sorry buts only my opinion and I have served in the forces sso can only go by own experiances

 

Thats not what was said mate, what was said is that the British Army is rotten to the core. That doesn't mean that guys joining turn into bad people it means that the goals and tactics of the full organisation or whatever you want to call it are suspect of being inhumane and evil or whatever else is classed as 'rotten'. Thats my perspective on it anyway and there is endless evidence to support the fact that the Army is indeed 'rotten'.

I suppose rotten is all down to definition.

Dont take it personally mate

 

Real reason "We" are in Afghanistan is to build the trans-Afghanistan gas pipeline.

* all to do with Al Queda, or Bin Laden or terrorism, it's money, oil, gas, energy & profit.

If Brittish Army guys want to go & die for that, then that's their perogative - if it was me I'd be like * ya *. That's what the General in Scotland did this week.

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