Shame on the SNP

With all that said, do you think it's right that the government can dictate what views are legitimate and what ones are not?

 

I'd say the mob that were causing trouble up at George Sq are the same people that get * off as soon as the IRA are mentioned, just because we live in a country full of bigots doesn't mean we have to ban any sort of freedom of speech. The fact that Ireland had to have an armed struggle due to gerrymandered borders and various other reasons doesn't make it any less credible.

 

There's a tendency in Scotland to conflate sectarianism, as you've defined it, and religious bigotry (the latter being, quite obviously, morally objectionable).

That's why everyone things it's a predominantly religious divide when it is in fact political for the most part.

 

Also the bill does * all to tackle Secterianism simply makes it less obvious so it can be ignored for another decade or so

 

Or my favourite by Brighton 'You're too ugly to be gay!'

 

That's a belter :smiley-laughing002:

 

Scotland's violent past is way beyond family memory as its a more than a quarter of a millenium ago. Its very different when people can still remember personal aspects of a violent conflict. It takes about 100-150 years for the past to lose its personal links and become almost abstract or something you get out of books.

I will give you an extreme example of about the maximum a family memory can be personal. My great grandad lived to near 100. He was born about 1880 and he was able to tell me shortly before he died things his dad told him that dated back to about 1860- actually that was about the family migrating from Ireland around then. That was one wee kid and a hundred year old man. He was able to tell me personal family things that now 35 years later I remember. That is words between two people crossing a span of time from the later 19th century to today.

Admittedly, that is a very unusual thing because he was so old and in great nick till he was near 100. What I am trying to say is I knew and met a family member whose could tell me about stuff that he remembered in what was about 135 years ago now. So, things can theoretically remain personal and family linked for a long time. My example is an extreme one but I think its not uncommon for things to still be personal family memory things for 100 years or more. That is the distinction between 20th century history and early periods. Once you get back beyond 100-150 years you get into 'time out of mind'. Certainly few people even know who their ancestor was in 1746- the last time Scots were involved in a largescale political violent conflict.

It does make a big difference when something is 'time out of mind' and the conflict was over something that noone relates to today like 1745 which was a conflict over choice or royal family - something noone would dream of fighting for today. The problem with the IRA is they were still active until less than 20 years ago and there are huge amounts of people on both sides who were effected personally by it. Celtic and the other new Glasgow club are a magnet for the very people who are most bought into the republican and loyalist things given that most of our fans are from west-central Scotland and north of Ireland. So, Glasgow and its football has a super-concentration of the very people who are most likely to be offended by republican and loyalist songs. Common sense dictates its not a good idea.

 

It's the SNP and their supporters that seem to have a problem with Irish expression.

One Scotland, many cultures. Unless you're Irish, then we'll arrest you.

 

I agree. Horses for courses. The Irish had it far worse under the UK than us. So the difference is understandable.

However, I will say this. I think the IRA actually messed up Irish freedom to some extent. It was likely to have been given a few years later peacefully in 1918- probably home rule then fully independence later. I dont think 1916 really was a good idea except for Sinn Fheinn themselves to get support though martyrdom. In fact in the WM elections of 1916 which led to Irish independence Sinn Fheinn, the group backing full independence, still only had 47 percent so its want even democratic in some ways. he reason why there wasnt more was that a large group of Irish wanted home rule for Ireland rather than immediate full split.

I think the IRA jumped the gun-no pun intended- and had too many hotheads and this caused partition. When you are middle aged you realise that as a young man you are more hotheaded and lack the long view. A more gradualist approach would have prevented that IMO. Its totally understandable why the Irish wanted their freedom after the way the English and then the UK had treated them. However, my opinion is the IRA actually made it much more violent than it needed to be by trying to force it quicker and more completely and basically caused partition.

I also think the modern Sinn Fheinn are terrible spinners and rewriters of history with their acting as though they brought peace when in fact they were peripheral to the original process involving the SDLP and the Ulster Unionists. John Hume was the Ghandi of the modern troubles while Adams and McGuinness were late developers in terms of realism. Their only contribution was persuading themselves and their members and supporters to drop the violent approach and stop being totally dogmatic about everything. Its a matter of opinion whether they should be thanked for stopping their own violence. They should have done that 20 years earlier too during Sunningdale. I

IMO IRA men were brave and dedicated but tunnel visioned and caught up in dogma and lack of vision. Basically typical idealistic young men - idealistic, brave, everything black and white dogma, impatient, no long view, lack of realism, hot head, able to dehumanise enemies. Its also a problem when you are tribal and dont really understand the other side and only want to talk to people who agree with you. I think a lot of it goes into the realms of psychology and the way men's brains mature quite slowly. Most people will look back when they are older and wiser and think jeez I didnt have a clue. I think a lot of young republicans did a lot of things they would never have done if they were 10 or 20 years older and really people shouldnt do anything irreversable when they are young men because your mind is still developing and maturing into your mid 20s. I think, as well as some psychopaths that a lot of people involved in the troubles were suffering from young man syndrome.Any organisation fill with young guys will lack realism IMO.

The provo leadership basically got older and wiser and realised that dogmatic absolutism was never going to work but NI had to wait until enough of them had reached that stage. That caused a lot of lives IMO and there was never any chance that a military victory could have been won -just never ending stalemate. A better approach would have been to try and peacefully win a chunk of the more reasobale protestants away from unionism and over to some sort of left wing, non-nationalistic vision for Ireland. They did it all wrong IMO. Again they just didnt have the wisdom and maturity IMO until a lot of damage was done. That is basically a summary of why I have never supported the provos and to some extent also think the old IRA got it wrong too. I honestly much more admire the SDLP of the old days when they consistently argued for compromised and peace for 20 years before Sinn Fheinn realised that was the way to go. Should we admire people who were slow to mature into realising that violence was not the way?

 

Gunt although you speak very eloquently I think your views on Ireland are very subjective and discriminatory.

The two main thingsI disagree with are. 1 as Irish republicans living in Britain we should ignore what we fundamentally and fervently believe to be right so as not to upset the British media. ( especially as it is Britains foreign policy that has led to Britain been home to so many who holddifferent views).
Secondly the argument that we should be silent because of the proximity of the conflict is illogical. It is exactly because of the proximity of the conflict these songs holdsuch resonance.

 

OK but you cannot deny that its problematic when you have two conflicting traditions supercontrated into the Glasgow-north of Ireland people where most of our and Sevcos fans are drawn from. I dont want to force my opinion on others but I just think sometimes something that is in theory fair isnt wise to do.

The thing I always say is Ireland like Scotland has a huge traditional song book and there are plenty of songs to celebrate the link that can be chosen that dont involve the IRA. So, I think people should at least be clear that this is not about celebrating Irishness per se. Its about celebrating the IRA which is a lot more controversial and problematic.

Anyway people can make their own minds up and act accordingly. What I have posted is just an honest opinion and I dont feel the need to force others to act the same way. I suppose I fall into the common category that the older songs about 1916 are less risky and raw (and to be honest are far better songs than a lot of the childish recent NI troubles stuff like SAM song etc), while I think its bordering on madness to sing provo stuff as its really just in the immediate past with far too many people knocking about effected by it. I was in a taxi not long ago and the woman driver's husband had been killed in northern Ireland. Just an example of how there are a lot of random people effected out there.

 

Read the roll of honour for Irelands bravest men

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKKeK2cFvdo"]Fighting Men - Roll Of Honour (Lyrics) - YouTube[/ame]

 

Gunt. I absolutely believe you are genuine and of course can see how problematic these issues are. However as I say where I disagree with you is on how much Irish republicans living in Scotland should have to remain silent. Especially on days like today. Last week you were talking to someone who lost someone to republican violence. At the Callie T game I was talking to someone whose brother was murdered by the british army in a pre planned shoot to kill operation. Why in the hierarchy of victims is yours more relevant than mine? Just because Celtic play in Glasgow?

 

Don't tar us all with the same brush.

 

:smiley-laughing002:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap-tSd5aulM"]Peter Griffin - Equal Rights - YouTube[/ame]

 

I am a supporter of the SNP and have no problem with Irish expression as I'm sure is the same with many of the Supporters particualrly the new intake since 18/09/14. I don't agree with legislation and would prefer it never existed and I will take every opportunity I get to make that know to my MSP and SNP Branch.

 

Aye and Jinky dam well knows that is pretty much how we all feel.

 

There's been half a dozen people on this thread that have stated they either support the bill or have a problem with Irish songs sung by the Celtic support. Outwith SNP supporters in our fan base, i'd say the majority of the general public would feel the same.

 

Given your views on the SNP, did you vote YES ?

 

Of course i did.

Independence was never about the SNP.