Neil Lennon

I agree with your entire post except from your breakdown of the Cluj defeat last year.

That was without question a huge failure. They might be a step up from the likes of Ferencvaros, but I don’t think they are a step up from us.

He had to replace Boyata, KT, Lustig and Sinclair who he never played anyway.

That was a big task. But he actually recruited very well in replacing Lustig and Boyata. With KT’s replacement, we all know how that went. Managers will never be 100% successful in recruitment, there’s so many factors. But he didn’t even play the guy he signed and played McGregor there. He even played Boli in the 1st leg. Middle to front it was the same team he’d been with for a few months.

It’s so frustrating when we are in great positions in games and it falls apart. We really seem to struggle against teams who change to a more attacking system to chase a result. Happened against Copenhagen too. However I don’t class it as a failure, they were there for the taking but they aren’t a bad team and the group stages were a huge success for us and the manager.

 

Because he literally can't do anymore domestically. He won every domestic trophy put in front of him. It's simply true.

I didn't say beating them was unrealistic; I said just expecting to beat them with the players available was unrealistic. Just expecting it and feeling let down was unrealistic. Ajeti was nowhere near fit and a CL league qualifier is not the time to start young boys who literally hadn't started a game for us at that point. You say we have a better squad than them, and that's true; but we didn't have a better team available on that particular night. The team available that night was unbalanced and missing key players through no fault of Lenny's

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It's not, though. Historically, over the last 40 years, we've not been a CL team most years. There comes a point, after 40 years of this, where you have to accept that there are structural reasons why we are not a CL team most years. That won't change until the TV money bubble bursts or Scotland starts producing lots of world-class talent like in the 60's and 70's.

Now that key players are returning and others are regaining their fitness, you're going to see a lot more of those. Patience.

 

Apologies your right, I completely misread your post.

And there is nothing off about me because I misread something

 

Twice you’ve misread, misunderstood or taken my post out of context.

 

You're right and I apologise. No need to say there something off about me though. If I regularly post dubious comments or even try and get at you in particular I'd see your point

 

I can’t even debate with him anymore. His standards are pathetic for a club like Celtic. Settling for mediocrity.

 

What sort of backwards logic is this?

And as is being said many many times now, the * has 40 years, 30 years, 26 years, 17 years, 5 years ago got to do with this season?


I don't give a * what Roy Atkin did many years ago, I care what the * Lennon is doing this season with these players.

 

For me, there was very little chance of us making the CL last season.

There’s a level of team who are capable of quickly assembling a capable backline simply by buying outstanding players. We’re nowhere near than level. For us to have a capable defence, at the level required to qualify for the CL, we need a settle lineup and time for the players to gel. I’ve always maintained that the business we do in the previous year will be the main factor in terms of our chances of qualifying for the CL. Doing a full defensive rebuild and then expecting to qualify was never going to work.

Thta what makes the Ferencvaros result all the worse for me - because we did do well last season in terms of the players we brought in. Completely agree that there’s no real justification for that result and most of the blame for the result falls on Lennon, unfortunately.

 

Come on. Stop being lazy and making me explain everything, because you can't be bothered to work it out. It's not complicated: beating Ferencvaros is not at all unrealistic; expecting to beat them and taking it for granted is unrealistic. Our qualifiers for more than a decade have shown both those things very clearly.

Because you have an expectation of CL football that isn't borne out by the facts over 4 decades and a dozen managers and you are using it as a stick to beat the manager with. The facts are that some years we have the CL and many years we don't. Building your expectations on a few special times when we had world-class players and/or coaches is bananas.

We'll have times like that again at some point. When we do, you'll enjoy them more if you appreciate how special they are.

Also, FWIW (I doubt anyone will agree with me), personally I prefer the EL nowadays. It's fun to play teams that are really good but not on another planet with the odd glamour tie like AC Milan thrown in. I don't really enjoy getting bent over home and away by teams full of world-class superstars. Most people will find that crazy, I imagine; but anyway, it's a personal opinion that doesn't affect my argument either way.

 

You are wrong about what I settle for. I just think there are structural reasons for what is realistic right now that are completely outwith the control of Neil Lennon or almost any other manager*. I absolutely want Celtic to aim higher than that and I'm hopeful we will. The academy seems to be good now, so the next step is to continue rebuilding the scouting network. It's going to be a long road.

What we disagree on are my standards of what is realistic for any manager short of a world-class coach like Rodgers to achieve with where we are currently. We don't disagree on where we should be as a club.

We absolutely should be reaching the standards of an Ajax or a Porto.

* I'm happy to debate whether we have a realistic chance of getting a world-class coach like Rodgers again (minus the ego and the lies); but that doesn't mean Lenny's not a good manager who has done a good job.

 

Expecting to beat Ferencvaros is NOT unrealistic or being self entitled. Appreciating that it is a knockout fixture, more so a one off leg, and that anything can happen is exactly what we would all acknowledge - hence they are not taken for granted, even though the expectation is that we should win these games. What is not acceptable is how we went about that game. It is not unrealistic to expect our manager and our players to step it up to that game. Neither did.


And again, no one gives a * about the last 4 decades. We are judging Lennon solely on HIS work, on THIS season on how HE is setting THIS team up!
I most certainly do not have an expectation of CL football every year, very far from it. In fact I would go as far to agree in part with your comment to the EL, sometimes we will have a drop in squad quality, or lack some experience and a EL run would be more helpful. But that doesnt mean we need to accept the pish we were given in the qualifiers this year. Again, I and many others are judging Lennon and beating him with stick that is solely caked in this seasons failings.

I will always want Celtic to perform to our best, what ever that level may be, but it is very clear we are not doing that this season and this is what Lennon is judged on.

Not compared to 1992 because it was worse than it is now.

 

This 4 decades chat is a complete misnomer. What we achieved or failed to achieve 4 decades ago has no bearing on today’s expectations. The game is just so utterly different.

This doesn’t need to be some sort of historical analysis of results going back 40 years - we simply should’ve done better than we did against Ferencvaros. We should’ve done better because our wage budget is massively bigger, and we’re capable of attracting better, more expensive players. We should’ve done better because our defensive organisation was terrible, and even when the game was crying out for Klimala to come on and run at a defence who were out on their feet, he stayed on the bench. You’ll struggle to find many Celtic fans at all that think a 2-1 home loss to a team operating with a fraction of your budget is an acceptable result.

It is absolutely not an unrealistic expectation to be beating sides of that level without too many issues.

 

We put ourselves in a great position and at the time, we expected to qualify. I don’t think we can look back and blame a new back line for not qualifying and be content with it. You don’t always get favourable draws like we’ve had the past two years. It’s so frustrating.

We will never know if Boli starting that game at LB would of produced a different outcome, but I wouldn’t be so critical of Lennon if he starts Boli and the same thing happens. I’d be disappointed, but I’d be wondering why the players never got it over the line rather than why did we set up that way in the first place.

Different levels of expectation. Maybe I expect too much or maybe you expect too little.

 

Just because a couple of players have come in and actually played doesn't mean that there aren't issues with scouting (and let it be clear that these are with our scouting department in general and not Neil Lennon).

In the last couple of years we've spunked 3 million on Taylor, 3 million on Bolingoli, 3.5 million on Klimala, 2.1 million on Soro. That's over 10 million, which isn't chump change.

For every good player we unearth there are several that we've overpaid for who never play or underwhelm when they do.

Jullien, Frimpong and Elhamed were good signings and Ajeti looks like an excellent striker, but it's going to take more than that to convince me our days of transfer incompetence are over, given the amount of money we spend relative to clubs on the continent.

 

What anyone can't deny with the squad we have we should be beating everyone domestically including the undead .
Just think Lennon has not got it tactically and like Thursday the other manager put three subs on and Lennon didn't react to that and later you could see our midfield was tiring badly and again no reaction from Lennon .
This is why slippy has been getting the upper hand in games lately we have better players but he has a game plan and has them organised as a team .
If Rogers or even Strachan was in charge we wouldn't be drawing that game on Thursday night as they would counter the subs and change tactics as you just look at the game at the bigotdome when we went a man down and Rogers changed it and won the game 3-2

 

I honestly didn’t.

I’ve always felt that it’s the kind of level we should be playing at, but in order to succeed we need a high level of continuation in the team. Pulling together a defence at short notice put us in a position where I felt it was unrealistic. It would’ve have been impossible or even close to it, but you would’ve needed the defence to click extremely quickly, or for a couple of the new signings to be of a level way above any of the opposition. I mean a Van Dijk type signing could put you in the position where it didn’t really matter if they clicked or not.

It’s one of the major difference between domestic football and even the later stages of the CL qualifiers for me. We’re far enough ahead of most of our domestic rivals to know that even when we don’t play especially well, there’s 4/5 players there who have the ability to step up and bail us out simply through individual brilliance. When it comes to playing others sides of similar ability though, that’s where the game is won/lost through things like organisation, teamwork, and effective press, in-game management etc.

 

You have to remember that under Rodgers or Strachan we may not have had a 2 goal lead to defend in the first place. That’s where you have to accept the positives of Lennon’s performance, along with the negatives.

Ultimately, regardless of who was in the dugout, you have to accept that we achieved a very good result.

 

Here’s something interesting. Cluj had 2 new players in defence, one CM and one up top.

They start their league a few weeks before us, but are they not relativly in the same boat as us?

I’d imagine Cluj fans were going into the games feeling like underdogs, but with some hope. For what it’s worth, when I draw was made I was aware Cluj weren’t a bad side. I don’t expect to walk over teams, but over two legs I’d imagine we get the job done. Jullien cost more than double all their signings did. There’s levels to the game and I have us above Cluj, even in the circumstances.

 

Before the game yes i would have taken the draw but like the Aberdeen game we do the hard part and get into the lead with only 5 minutes to go and he throws on Turnbull instead of a defensive player we had on the bench .
He needs to use his subs better and like the zombie game he had to change it at half time as we didn't have a shot on target and he kept the same side for the second half unbelievable he did that .