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Diego Maradona 1960 - 2020

Discussion in 'World Football' started by \o/, Dec 9, 2012.

Discuss Diego Maradona 1960 - 2020 in the World Football area at TalkCeltic.net.

  1. AwesomeCaz

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    Go to Argentina and ask who's the best ever, only one answer and Leo isn't his name. Maradona did everything Messi can do minus passing ability. Messi's goal tally is insane yes, but people are simply scoring more nowadays. A 30 goal season used to be insane for any striker but in the last 5 years Messi, Ronaldo, Lewandowski, Suarez, Aguero & probably more have blasted past it.

    It's nonsense because it goes against your opinion. You spectacularly missed the point though - Maradona WOULDN'T even be a coke addict in the modern game. His natural exquisiteness with the fitness regime of a top modern player he would clearly be even better.
    People forget Messi was given injections, drugs and top doctors from age 11 by Barca. Without that he'd still be in some Argentinian slum. Maradona made it out with zero medical help.

    Let's go then; Messi has failed every single time at international level, despite having team-mates far better than those Diego worked with. Yet Maradona won the World Cup on his own when the WC was definitely the biggest football tournament.
    At Domestic level Messi played for far better squads thus won far more trophies. So on paper of course Leo wins that head-to-head but dig deeper and it's closer. Had Diego played for Real at their peak or been looked after by Barcelona he'd have easily won a couple Europeans. The reverse; place Messi at a poor team who never win trophies and see if he can singlehandedly guide them to two leagues and the Europa league - it's not happening.

    Zero hypotheticals, only facts.
     
  2. Albian Ajeti Gold Member Gold Member

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    He can’t match Messi’s insane goalscoring.
    Messi’s goalscoring ratio has never been seen before, and he’s been doing it for fourteen * years now. :56:

    Another hypothetical.
    The slum comment is another hypothetical. Growth hormones didn’t help his talent, it just brought him up to normal levels of growth because of the deficiency he had. Maradona ended his career actually doping.

    It’s a team game. He dragged them to the final and his teammates let him down. Maradona had to cheat.
    Not true.
    Zero hypotheticals :56:

    Everything in bold is completely hypothetical. That Napoli side had loads of money spent on it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2020
  3. King of Kings

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    I can’t exactly verify your claim re Argentinian fans. It wouldn’t surprise me, but I don’t believe it has any more weighting that any other football fans. There’s obviously a decent amount of bias involved as well, given one in, and won the World Cup with, Argentina, while the other went abroad at a very young age.

    Mate - did you actually read my post? You’ve said I missed the point, then gone on to immediately state what I already said....that Maradona wouldn’t be a coke addict in the modern game :39: again though, although we may agree on this point, it’s purely speculative, just as the idea that Messi would wilt at the first sign of a rough tackle is.

    Back to my original point though - it IS nonsense. Not because I believe Messi is a better player, but because this idea that Maradona is better simply because he had a beer belly and off the pitch problems is....ridiculous frankly. You could make an argument for one being better than the other in spite of those things, but they absolutely do not contribute to any claim of greatness.
     
  4. King of Kings

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    The ‘just facts’ bit at the end gave me a laugh. Almost every sentence contained a hypothetical scenario and an opinion on how it would play out.

    Which is fine given that the entire scenario is subjective, but no point in trying to present that as a collection of hard facts.
     
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  5. cidermaster Gold Member Gold Member

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    At his best he is the best Player ever,imagine in this Era with the protection players get on the pitch what he could do.He is the GOAT in my view,has been ever since i saw him scale the heights in 86 as a lad.
     
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  6. Officer Doofy Come to me, human man Gold Member

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    AwesomeCaz talking * again. What's new?
     
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  7. Barry Robson

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    Was the Argentina side in 1986 as average or poor as people make it out to be. With players such as Jorge Valdano, Oscar Ruggeri, Jorge Burruchaga and Sergio Batista to name a few. South American football was also very good at this point, ie river plate where a top side. Franz Beckenbauer described Argentina as close to perfection and without an obvious weakness prior to the final. They had a very good coach with a well drilled side and a solid defence that went a long way in helping the team win. No doubt Maradona was the star man and talisman aswell as player of the tournament but does it mean he won it single handidly and the rest of the team were poor!
     
  8. King of Kings

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    They weren’t a poor side by any measure.

    I feel as though the World Cup argument is a bit ridiculous though. For someone using it as the reason Messi is not the GOAT - would he then have been the GOAT if Palacio had taken his chance and scored in the final and Argentina had gone on to win? It has no bearing on how good each individual player is.
     
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  9. Notorious Gold Member Gold Member

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  10. AwesomeCaz

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    You seem to think i'm condoning his lack of conditioning or drug use. It's simply that it shows just how ridiculously good he was, that he achieved all he did whilst not subscribing to basically any notion of professionalism. You can use that to bash him, of course, and he shot himself in the foot with his antics.

    But talent wise there is no question for me he's the best ever and I believe most people over 20 say the same. A fat junkie Diego won the world cup and numerous other trophies basically alone - it's not far-fetched hypotheticals to imagine just what he could've done with a fit body and mind.

    He's scored 40+ a season for 14 years? Stop it. He had 3 insane seasons then fell off, as is natural. The point, you again missed, was we're in an era of vastly increased goalscoring than in the past. Messi has raised the bar, yes, but the overall bar (number of goals) is also generally higher than in the 80s. If you can't see that fact I can't debate.

    Messi was helped by drugs, Maradona ruined by them. That's the simple and obvious comparison to make. It's not hypothetical but logical to draw the inference that Maradona with Messi's help, diet, doctors, regime and medicine would have been even better.

    Maradona cheated in the same game he also scored the best ever goal.

    It's a team game when it suits your argument. Poor wee Messi let down by his team mates, in about 7 different finals despite him individually playing poorly. Yet Diego, with far weaker team mates, was merely one of the squad...Gotcha.

    And Barcelona didn't/hasn't?! They've literally wasted hundreds of millions in the last few years. C'mon, your opinion is fine but you're not being remotely fair or objective. Messi is one of the most naturally gifted footballers in history but you cannot deny or ignore the vast aid afforded to him by playing with Xavi, Ronaldinho, Iniesta, Puyol, Larsson, Villa and numerous more world stars, having not just a youth & senior team but an entire club and infact league entirely set up to help him.

    Messi has never faced adversity like Maradona had to and when under serious pressure, such as the hopes of Argentina on his shoulders or latterly Barcelona in the Champions League he has crumbled.

    Leo is also advantaged by recency bias. Every one of his touches practically from aged 15 'til now has been filmed in high quality from various angles, he can showcase skills at home on instagram. He's the biggest sports star in an era of 24/7 celebrity pandering & worship.
    Some of Maradona's best moment wouldn't even have been captured. It's not a fair comparison in that sense.
     
  11. Albian Ajeti Gold Member Gold Member

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    I didn't say he's scored 40+ a season for 14 years. I said he's been scoring a lot for 14 years. :56:

    He did have 10 seasons in a row where he scored at least 41 goals though. Maradona's highest scoring season was in Argentina and it was only two more than Messi's worst season over a 10 year period.

    It's difficult to find data on this but your claim about a period of higher goalscoring is difficult for you to backup.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/269031/goals-scored-per-game-at-the-fifa-world-cup-since-1930/

    This shows that scoring at every WC since 1962 has had a ratio between 2 & 3 goals per game. The truth is, is that scoring rates will fluctuate over time. Maradona faced easier defences throughout his career, as players weren't as fit, defences weren't as organised and it was easier to shine as a star player.

    No, it's a skewed comparison as growth hormone treatment isn't doping, it's medical treatment for a disease. What Maradona did was doping, or in other words, he cheated (again). The final sentence is entirely hypothetical and as I've already said, worthless.

    "Best ever goal" is subjective. He couldn't win the World Cup without cheating, that's a fact.
    It's a team game regardless of whose argument it suits. "Far weaker" teammates is a lot of pish.

    I'm not saying they didn't. The point is, Maradona had great teammates at the time too, that's why Napoli were able to win Serie A. The 'single handed win' thing for Serie A and the World Cup is nothing but a myth. Having a 'league entirely set up to help him' is a laughable comment. I think Messi is the best because of what Messi has done.
    Utter nonsense.
    You can easily flip that and say the Maradona is advatanged by nostalgia. There's more than enough footage of Maradona, along with their records, to make a fair comparison. Messi wins every single time because he's just a superior player. His consistency for so long, at the highest level makes him better than Maradona. He's as good as Maradona with the ball, a better passer, a much better goalscorer and finisher too.
     
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  12. Marty McFly Whoa, this is heavy Gold Member

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  13. jafa

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    Just watched the film re Maradonas life on All4 the channel 4 catch up channel. My * what a life, both the highs and the lows.
     
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  14. Gyp Rosetti Gold Member Gold Member

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    This is the reason why I fell in love with fitbaw as a boy, the first World Cup I can remember and Maradona was unplayable.

     
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  15. packybhoy Administrator Administrator

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  16. King of Kings

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    Im not suggesting you’re condoning it - I’m suggesting it’s irrelevant.

    Him being better in the absence of his off the field problems is as irrelevant as Messi being better if he had the speed of an Olympic sprinter. What they have is what we’re comparing here, not what they may have had under entirely different circumstances.

    When I look at Messi, I simply see a guy who does everything Maradona can do in terms of individual brilliance and dribbling, but can also do numerous aspects of the game to a higher standard, combined with a much higher level of longevity.
     
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  17. Gyp Rosetti Gold Member Gold Member

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    Get that tae *! :42:
     
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  18. eire4

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    I remember the 1986 World Cup Finals so well watching it as a kid I was in awe of what Maradona did and to this day I have never seen a single player dominate a World Cup Finals so utterly as Maradona did in 1986 with such brilliant football and skill. IMHO certainly in my lifetime so I am going back to 1982 in Spain in terms of World Cup Finals that I avidly saw and followed and I would include European Championship Finals as well I have never seen one player even come close to doing what Maradona did in 1986. Argentina had a decent side but no way are they anywhere near winning the World Cup in 1986 without what Maradona did.
     
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  19. Barry Robson

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    As I said the Argentina side were not poor by any means as alot of people claim they were, Maradona was the talisman for them.

    Platini for France in Euro 84 tournament is up there with having as good as an individual performance in an International Tournament surely!
     
  20. Gyp Rosetti Gold Member Gold Member

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    Or Zidane in 98.