The Boxing Thread

Hey now I never said that

 

He’s a great fighter - no doubt. I just find it really hard to establish his place in the ‘all time’ heavy list as the quality of opponent hasn’t been there for him to be properly assessed.

Seems to me that his ‘greatness’ is largely being defined by the Wilder trilogy, and as exciting as that’s been, that’s pretty much all it’s been - exciting. The first - mission impossible. The second - a satisfying domination. The third - a real ding dong. The ‘romance’ of this trilogy is off the scale, but the truth of the matter is that Wilder is a honking boxer. Truly dreadful.

Tyson is a real oddity - huge men shouldn’t be able to move like that… and flabby huge men really shouldn’t have an engine like that. Moreover he’s obviously an intelligent fighter and he has a big heart.

I really wouldn’t be surprised if Fury was the last man standing in a magical all-time tourney - there’s a real possibility he could prevail as he’s a legitimate phenomenon. He just hasn’t fought a legitimately ‘great’ fighter (far less a number of legitimately great fighters), so the evidence is based solely on him alone. And that’s not enough for me.

Sadly, it doesn’t seem that he has the necessary competition on the horizon either. AJ hasn’t met the potential we all hoped for him, Whyte is game but average, Joyce is underwhelming, and Dubois is far from convincing. The only interesting one for me is Usyk. He’s small and doesn’t have much power, but he’s a fox. He’s like Fury - another wild card!

But let there be no doubt - Fury is a great fighter… and certainly the greatest heavyweight of his era. He should be commended for bringing boxing back into public focus.

 

Agree with almost all of that @scootz but again, his Klitschko performance was his peak performance. He was nowhere near that level on Saturday night in my opinion. That night in Germany (?) was when he peaked and my * what a performance it was. That was the night I fell in love with Fury. I had never really watched him fight before that and I’ve since watched quite a few of his old fights.

The heart, conditioning, his size, the way he moves, his chin are all amazing and I’m glad you agree that in a hypothetical fantasy all-time tournament he could very well be the last man standing. He would beat Mike Tyson in my opinion.. a 5ft 10 power puncher vs Prime 6ft 9 Fury? Yet if someone told you Mike Tyson wins that tournament most people wouldn’t bat an eyelid. I just don’t think Tyson Fury has ever really got the credit for quite how good he is. As evidenced by the fact that, before AJ lost to Ruiz, most people thought it was laughable to suggest Fury would beat AJ.. when in actual fact Fury wouldn’t even get touched (ok, we can’t know that, but hypothetically it’s an easy win for Fury).

Trust me, this opinion is not based off the Wilder fights. I am in full agreement that he is an awful boxer technically speaking. I’ve watched a lot of his fights too. Gerald Washington won nearly every round against him before getting knocked out late. Chisora’s corner threw in the towel for him in round 10/11 against Fury in their rematch. If my memory serves me, the first fight was a carbon copy except it went the distance. He quite literally could not land a glove. Fury’s performance was absolutely beautiful that night (rematch). Again.. Chisora is a relative * in the grand scheme of things but he’s also far from a bad heavyweight and completely shutting him down like that is certainly highly impressive. I agree he has not really fought enough people to concretely say anything in regards to how good he is relative to the old greats, but those performances against Chisora and Wlad (and Wilder), coupled with him being by decades the most recent man in the conversation, I think Fury is the best ever.

 

There’s absolutely no realistic argument for him being the best ever heavyweight imo. Boxing has a long, well respected history and Fury would have his work cut out to even be considered among the top 10 heavyweights of all time before he retires.

His best win was against Wlad, but Wlad himself would make very, very few peoples top 10 list. He dominated one of the weakest ever heavyweight boxing eras and even before stepping in the ring with Fury had stoppage losses to Lamont Brewster and Cory Sanders - who themselves are nowhere near the elite heavyweight conversation.

Right now, Fury’s resume is very sparse. A good win against Wlad, a few good wins against an incredibly limited Wilder, and then….Chisora?

Ultimately, ranking boxing across historic eras tends to be done in an achievement basis. If you look at the Fury/Lewis comparison they’re quite honestly miles apart in terms of achievements (and Lewis doesn’t have a PED ban in there), so while I fully expect Fury could pose him some problems, one has fought and beaten plenty of opponents of Fury’s calibre, and the other hasn’t shared a ring with anything close to Lewis.

It’s partly a by-product of timing - you could say that Fury suffers because he’s fighting in a weaker era - but he still has to actually go out and beat whats in front of him. If he was to retire today and never fight again you would be looking at a career that was impressive, but not spectacular, and certainly nowhere near that of the great heavyweights.

 

Speaking of the great heavyweights, this guys was lucky/unlucky enough to have sparred some of the all time greats. Quite interesting insight into his thought in them, and touches on the idea that boxing hasn’t developed in the manner other sports have, with the old times still being very capable of throwing down with today’s best - note AJ is not Anthony Joshua in this case:

"Hello everyone. I'm a friend of AJ's from another forum. I used to box professionally from time to time, but nowadays I still spar. I've sparred with many legends. AJ asked to me describe what it is like to be in the ring with them and gauge their punching power. I will not reveal my name for personal reasons, but under anoymousity I feel a bit safer. If you want to know my identity send me an email, but I doubt you've heard of me anyway. I only had three professional fights.

I fought Lennox Lewis and Riddick Bowe as an *.

Riddicks power wasnt memorable to me. It probably got better as he got older, cause he never even remotely buzzed me in either of our contests.

Lennox hit like a * tank. He cowed me; I won the first round, and he literally broke my spirit and took my soul with a right uppercut and straight right hand in the 2nd. I tried to stay away, and forgot to punch. He never got me quite as good again, but I will never forget those two punches. When we sparred years later, he hit very hard. Distinctly unpleasant to be hit by the man.

David Tua was unpleasant. I can't see myself getting stopped by him early, as he never really staggers me, but every shot hurt, and he'd bang. Every other guy I ever sparred would box when I got aggressive, but David would stand his ground and give. I'd get these horrible headaches after sparring with him, and Dave told me once that whenever he knew I was on the dance card, he'd drink extra water for his brain. Nice guy. Hit like a wrecking ball. David Tua hit hard enough to knock my headgear clean around my face. Dude had a pretty limited style, but that left was quick as a cobra when he was sharp, and boy did it have bite. Having sparred them both, Wladimir would school Tua and probably turn out his lights. He just lacks almost any sort of refinement to his violence. Granted, I don't really either unless I'm really, really on that day, but the best heavyweights I've sparred handled me a lot easier than David did.
Feels kinda bad critiquing the dude, though. He's a fun guy, super hospitable and friendly, hit like a truck and put me through plenty of painful paces. I only hope our careers and lives don't end up with me required to face him with 12's and no mask. I can't afford the surgery.

Evander Holyfield was a machine gun. He put me on my * first round we ever sparred with a 7 or 8 punch volley. He just punched well; He'd move around and when he let them go, they hit, hard and fast and in large numbers. He was the weakest of the group since Bowe, but probably the most dangerous. He never found me difficult to find, and turned me into a bobble head more than once.

George Foreman was tricky. His jab was absolutely numbing-Ive never felt a jab like that, where your whole face would feel like it got novacained after he hit you with it. He'd also throw light punches primarily, almost pitty pat, till he had the opening, and then he'd wallop you. His punches had the most force; They didn't hurt any worse than Tua or Lewis, but I remember how badly they'd screw with my balance. His shots moved me. He also broke my nose with a straight right.

Wladimir Klitschko hit me by far the hardest, though. I couldn't get past the jab, and his right hands hit like thunder. They reminded me of Lewis', but they were quicker and sharper. Wladimir staggered me regularly in sparring. There are literally whole rounds I don't remember. He also knocked me out with a left hook. Not down, out. Only time in my life I've seen canvas and not been able to stand up by 10 seconds.

Theres loads more there from the same guy that I can post if anyone is interested.

 

I love reading about obscure sparring stories - it would amaze folks as to who has put who on his * in a training session!

There’s a fair bit of ‘give’ in sparring attitudes though - some go to war each and every time they climb through the ropes, and some largely use sparring sessions for fitness, sharpness and experimentation.

I had a wee chuckle when I read about Big George’s jabs being loaded with Novocain. For me, it’s between him or Earnie Shavers for the title of boxing’s heaviest hitter. He rarely threw home runs like Wilder - he didn’t have to… his paws were wrecking-balls!

As for Wilders power - there’s no denying that he can turn lights out, but when properly assessing it, we really have to look at the type of punches he throws. I’ll bet a pound to a penny that most top level heavies could load up and throw similarly powerful punches, but there’s a reason they don’t… it leaves them horribly exposed if the shot misses its target (which haymakers often do). Wilder set his own career on that single ‘technique’, and to be fair, it did pretty well for him. But at the end of the day this ‘tradesman’ only had one tool in his box - a hammer! It wasn’t enough to get all the jobs done.

 

Tyson (MK1) will always be in the GOAT conversation because of his hand-speed, outlandish combinations, ring IQ, head movement, and explosive power. And let’s not forget - he could take a punch as well.

He was an incredible fighting machine back in the day. So much so that his lack of height was almost immaterial. My gut feeling is that Fury wouldn’t have been able to hold the other Tyson at bay, and he’d struggle to land a shot on Mike. His only hope (for me) would be to turn it into a wrestling match and try and tire Mike out.

 

In the hypothetical greatest ever heavyweight championship while in their prime.

Who's finishing runner up to Muhammad Ali?

 

In Boxing you can only be the Greatest in the Era you are in and as it stands Tyson Fury is the Greatest in his era by some way.
For me it is very difficult to say who is The Greatest ever,but if they all fought each at their very best i would say George Foreman,but that is my opinion.This man fought brilliantly in 2 totally different eras.
As for Tyson Fury he really is challenging to be in my Top 10,ever,but not in my Top 10 as yet but in 2 Fights time he is odds on to do just that,but this is Boxing and anything could still happen.

 

I think it’s nothing short of utter madness to not have Tyson Fury in a top 10 of all time list. I’m not talking about resumes I’m talking about ability.
It’s a funny argument anyway, same with Ufc. You go around in circles talking about who was the best ever and you never get any further along to finding the right answer. Tyson Fury is the best heavyweight since the 90s/early 00s.

 

Also throw in the fact Tyson Fury's Career is still of course on going and he is being compared to the other Greats who have finished their Careers.It is going to be more than interesting to see how Greater the Gypsy King's career could get and me like countless others cannot wait to see him fight again and again.

 

Who would you say those two fights/wins had to be against for him to crack the top 10 heavyweights ever?

 

The point of my ramblings is that I DON’T rate this era (for talent).

It’s been great for drama and general talking points, but there isn’t the same depth of talent in the division just now as there was in the 70’s / 90’s. It’s not even close.

 

He’d be my wildcard pick in a Top 10. I know he’s great - I just don’t know HOW great he is as he hasn’t regularly faced great opposition.

 

I genuinely don’t know if a single ‘boxing person’ (writers/pundits etc) who has him in their top 10 just now. His body of work is just far too weak.

The reason it’s talked about in terms of achievement instead of ability is that what you achieve is a much more tangible measure of how successful you were in a sport than anything else. What you’ve actually done is given more weight than what you could hypothetically do - and rightfully so. For instance - I fully believe Fury would beat Joshua if they fought. Until he does though, why should it count for anything?

The first link I pulled from Google gave us this list which places Holyfield at number 10:

https://www.boxingnewsonline.net/the-top-10-heavyweights-of-all-time/

Holyfield’s career includes wins against a number of all time great heavyweights including Foreman, Bowe, Tyson and Larry Holmes. The only opponent on Fury’s record that fits in among any of them is Klitschko. Even after that, Holyfield has Cooper, Douglas, Moorer and 3/4 others who are all up there with anything Fury has faced outside Wladimir. That doesn’t even touch on him unifying the cruiserweight division before doing that. That body of work just gets you top 10, which is indicative of how difficult it is to achieve in a sport with so much history.

MMA is quite different because it’s quite young, and has only really become established as a mainstream sport in the last decade or so. I expect there will be numerous MMA fighters throughout our lifetimes who make very valid claims for the best ever in their division, whereas in boxing you’ve got to be outrageously special (and prove you’re outrageously special) to even get near the conversation.

So basically, he has a * done to do to crack the top 10 heavyweights, and even that might not be enough. It would depend to some degree what those he beat went on to do as well.

 

Foreman is a great shout. My ‘semi final’ line-up in an all-time heavyweight boxing tournament consists of Ali, Mike Tyson, Big George and Lennox. My opinion of who goes into the final, and who wins the final changes constantly due to variations of who fights who, and at what stage in their career.

George is the big conundrum here - Young George was a terrifying bull cast in the image of his old training partner Sonny Liston - he felt he was indestructible, and that ‘I-just-need-to-turn-up-and-throw-punches’ mentality led to the end of his first-coming. Old George was also a bull; a bit slower, but he still had the frightening power. Most importantly though, he could now add wisdom and humility to his skill-set.

Young George with Old George’s head wins the tournament every time for me… but that’s pushing the boundaries of the rules.

 

MMA is young, but elite level professionalism in MMA is even younger. The rate MMA is improving is probably incomparable to any other sport I can think of. Watching some ‘elite level’ fights from even a decade ago are embarrassing.

Boxing seems to be the only sport where the elite performers from different eras seem to hold up which is mad.

 

For sure.

It’s starting from a different level (I think unified MMA rules have only been around for a decade or so) but I would expect the rate of change to slow down now that more and more elite MMA fighters are high level, full time athletes with access to the best training. It would have been the exception 20 years ago, but now everyone has a good grasp of what works, where to go to learn it, how to apply it etc.

I remember speaking to a former cage warriors champion about his career. He was considered a submission specialist all because he knew how to armbar someone, and that was considered elite grappling it was elite at the time, whereas now it would be far too basic to ever be effective.

Boxing has barely changed. Slightly bigger heavyweights. Slight variations in styles. Seems to be about it.