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Neil Lennon

Discussion in 'Ex Players' started by romeo9535, Apr 17, 2016.

Discuss Neil Lennon in the Ex Players area at TalkCeltic.net.

  1. King of Kings

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    Not really. The only evidence I can offer comes from Strachan, who says he was offered the job and turned it down because he’s a Celtic fan.

    I’m not defending Lawwell here btw - he’s absolutely open to criticism. I’m just asking that people apply the same standards to Lennon, who in my eyes has demonstrated just as much greed and arrogance as anyone this season.
     
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  2. King of Kings

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    Again, the exact same line could equally be applied to Lennon.
     
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  3. Gyp Rosetti Gold Member

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    Why should Lennon walk away when the guy who employed him won’t?
     
  4. Random Review

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    I think that's incredibly harsh to put those things into the same moral category.

    If being ignorant of what I'm doing wrong in a situation is inexcusable, then I sometimes behave inexcusably in my job. So do the vast majority of teachers I ever worked with.

    No, I didn't. I said you were straw-manning me for implying that I was arguing that Lenny was, and I'm quoting you here, "a sense of duty saint". It would not have been misrepresenting my position if you had said that I thought that it was possible that duty was part of the reason Lenny hasn't quit.

    Mate, seriously, this is now the third time you have misrepresented someone's position in as many pages and the second time you have done it to me. We all do it without thinking sometimes, but knock it on the head now, please. It makes me not want to discuss this topic with you anymore.
     
  5. King of Kings

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    Well, Lennon is the manager and manager are typically more replaceable than CEO’s. Do so in the middle of a season would be very, very unusual as well, whereas a manager leaving mid-season is common place.

    I’m 90% certain Lawwell will be off after this season anyway, and would’ve been regardless of the outcome. It feels like the right time (for him) to walk.
     
  6. FrankMcCallum Gold Member Gold Member

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    You’ve been nothing but fair in your support of Lennon throughout and fair play to you for it.

    You’ve provided a fair and coherent argument throughout for him but the evidence for providing that argument is surely waring thin.

    There’s no point in resorting to personal insults I agree, but as the figurehead of the club there must surely be some standard that you must adhere to.

    I don’t care if you’re 22 stone but scrub yourself up, if his pre match interview on sky sports was a Rangers manager I’d be dining off that for years, was thoroughly embarrassing.
     
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  7. StevieBhoooy!

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    I’ve gone beyond the ‘sack him now’ attitude with Lennon... it should have been weeks if not months ago...

    ... no... he’s declared himself (as have the board) the man for the job ... so now he needs to see it out. Getting rid of him now would probably suit him ultimately.... sacked half way through a season - even though we all know it’s a goner - when it’s still not mathematically lost.

    No Neil ... it’s time now to stick around. When it gets to May and if by some miracle he had brought home the ‘10’ then he can rightly claim the credit and a place in history...

    I think we all know that miracles like that are more than unlikely in this particular season.... so when we finish 2nd or even 3rd come May then Neil Lennon should be there to soak up the Disappointment, embarrassment and ignominy of such underachievement in Celtics most important season.

    Same goes for the ‘wantaways’... they want away because it suits them..

    .... bench them or sideline them if necessary.. but they need to be around to see the impact on the fans (and the club finances) that such failure at such a critical time will cause.
     
  8. Gyp Rosetti Gold Member

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    We’ve heard this pish about Lawwell being off for years, where is he going to get the same sort of salary and bonuses? The guy is a parasite and is a massive part of why we are in the state we are. He employed Lennon and is as much to blame for this mess imo.
     
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  9. Random Review

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    The reason I don't apply the same standards to both is that I take into account their previous actions and their whole persona. If Boris Johnson shows the slightest sign of lying, I presume he probably is, because he is on record as lying on multiple occasions. If John Major (Taking another Tory politician in order not to make this party political), says something that looks like it might be a lie, I'm more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

    Everything Lawwell does is about maximising value, that is a very useful trait and it's helped make him an excellent businessman and I'm not criticising him for it; but they aren't values I would impute to Neil Lennon.

    One interpretation of Lawwell's behaviour this season is looking after his own power base. Since this fits with his general patterns of behaviour, I'm provisionally assuming that's a likely motivation. One interpretation of Lenny's behaviour this season is milking us for money. Since this doesn't fit with his previous behaviour or the loyalty and affection he has shown the club in the past, I'm inclined to be more hesitant about assuming it to be the case. When you then take into account a similar implosion at Hibs and several extraordinarily confused interviews by Lenny lately, I think more plausible explanations suggest themselves.

    We all of us reason in this way literally all the time. It's a quick-and-dirty heuristic and it can be wrong (maybe it will turn out Lawwell really was looking out for Celtic and Lenny was really only looking out for himself), but it's not inconsistent or double standards.

    It's worth repeating that this is a normal heuristic we use all the time. An everyday example: If a European referee doesn't give us a penalty, we don't automatically assume he's cheating and we are much quicker to do so with a Scottish referee. Double standards? No, a reasonable guess using a priori probabilities based on long experience.
     
  10. thailandceltic From Immigration to Domination

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    The rats back:56:
     
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  11. JamesM09

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    Like I said, if the Celtic manager, a supposed Celtic fan, is acting in self-preservation 10 points behind the Hun in the 10 season, embarrassed in Europe etc. then I think that’s wrong. You can consider the ‘moral categories’ of whatever you like.


    Let’s not be pedantic. You can make mistakes and be unaware of doing something wrong, but there’s a line as you well know. Let’s also not pretend Lennon can reasonably not know what’s going on. You let yourself down here.

    Seems to me you’ve been caught out accusing me of straw-manning you when it was indeed what you thought all along, which is pretty disingenuous and disappointing mate.

    We’ll park the discussion here because I think you dance around the point and I don’t want to accused of misrepresenting your position for the sake of discussion, just for you to reveal that’s your position a few posts later.
     
  12. Random Review

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    I think you're right inasmuch as it's bad PR. I don't want to criticise him for it though. I was the scruffiest teacher in the school in Indonesia; but I was also the only one coming in 3 hours early every day (we got paid from 1pm and I almost always started at 10am) to plan my classes as well as I possibly could. very few teachers worked as hard as me or studied as hard as me to improve. Yet I had to be told to shave and have a haircut, because all that stuff seems meaningless to me.

    I don't think there's any correlation TBH. If I look at top managers in my opinion, Bielsa looks scruffy as *, Mourinho and Guardiola always look immaculate and Klopp and Rodgers are kind of in the middle (hope it's clear I'm not comparing Lenny with any of these guys as a manager).
     
  13. Random Review

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    If you really believe that, you can't have been listening carefully to his interviews during that awful patch.
    People can judge for themselves if I let myself down, but I'm happy enough with what I wrote. I think it was pretty reasonable.



    To your genuine credit, the fact that you still haven't clicked what you did tells me that you didn't do it on purpose.

    Let me show you:

    1) You attacked a position (that Neil Lennon is a "sense of duty saint") which I never held.
    That is a direct quote from you.
    2) You then represented my correction as meaning I thought a sense of duty couldn't be a reason for Lenny staying.

    Proposition 1 (what you imputed to me): Lenny is a "sense of duty saint".
    Proposition 2 (my correction): I never said Lenny was a "sense of duty saint".
    Proposition 3 (your second imputation): you (Random Review) think it's not duty [that he stayed for].
    Proposition 4 (my second correction): I didn't say that it's not duty. I think a sense of duty might be one reason he stayed.

    Can you see how "[Lenny is] a sense of duty saint" misrepresents "It's possible that a sense of duty is one reason Lenny has stayed"? The first position is mental and the second is reasonable.
     
  14. Random Review

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    When were you away? :37:
     
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  15. Sean Daleer Free Palestine Gold Member

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    I never left sweet cheeks
     
  16. King of Kings

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    You aren’t applying your own heuristic evenly.

    You mention Lennon showing loyalty and affection. Affection is tenuous and difficult to measure, so let’s take loyalty.

    In what way has he shown more loyalty to Celtic than Lawwell? Lawwell has been here for longer, and as far as we know is the only one to have turned down a move to a more prestigious, bigger position.

    Again, saying ‘everything Lawwell does is about maximising value’ doesn’t fit with the evidence at hand - that he rejected a lucrative move to Arsenal to remain here because of an emotion connection to the club. Or perhaps you don’t believe that to be the case - would your heuristic tell you that Gordon Strachan is a liar, or a straight shooter, almost to a fault?

    And that’s the basis of what I’m saying essentially - people are applying a double standard to try and shift blame away from Lennon because it’s comfortable. It’s much easier for everyone, myself included, to dislike Lawwell than Lennon.

    On the basis of your own measurement though - loyalty and greed - it isn’t Lawwell that appears to come of worse out of the two of them.
     
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  17. Callum McGregor The Captain Gold Member

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    Nearly 20 points behind in the league and he's still in a job. Utter madness.
     
  18. The Prof Administrator Administrator

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    What is the thinking here, any idea ?
     
  19. King of Kings

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    I agree.

    He should’ve taken action and sacked him months ago. I don’t want to give anyone the impression than I’m trying to absolve Lawwell of blame here.

    I’m just seeing people shift blame away from Lennon on to Lawwell and I genuinely believe it’s a bit of a cop-out under the circumstances. They’ve both let us down for different reasons.[/QUOTE]
     
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  20. Gyp Rosetti Gold Member

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    Fair enough mate.
     
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