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Ferguson Situation

Discussion in 'TalkCeltic Pub' started by Jack Torrance, Nov 25, 2014.

Discuss Ferguson Situation in the TalkCeltic Pub area at TalkCeltic.net.

  1. AwesomeCaz

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    Pure coincidence i'm sure.

    Obama's stuck betwixt a rock and hard place on this one. Can't just overwrite the Grand Jury's decision as the republicans will go nuts but at the same time he can't be seen to just leave his black voters stranded.

    People say multiculturalism has failed but really ghettoisation (quite obviously) has failed. Put all the blacks in poor, scummy communities, encourage white flight to the suburbs and then it's no real surprise * like this occurs.
     
  2. Dáibhí

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    Didn't the evidence kind of point to the policeman being kinda in the right this time though?

    How do you change that though? And these communities you speak of that are poor and scummy, were they scummy and poor before the white people left? If so, how did the whites manage to get out?

    Also, don't black people live in some of the decent, up-market neighbourhoods in America as well?
     
  3. 31B404 Gold Member Gold Member

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    The personality of cops is irrelevant.

    The stigmatization of powerless people resorting to their very last option of protest as thugs; troublemakers, thief's and criminals * me off.

    Resentment doesn't come from one isolated case and riots from the same. Sparks are sparks, but then only spark if you have something to throw them on. People hate the police and they have every reason to do so.
     
  4. AwesomeCaz

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    Evidence is entirely dependent on who's viewing it. In the opinion of the majority of white people and police officers in America, yes of course. However I believe cops should be taught to always aim for the legs or carry a tazer to de capacitate a suspect rather than killing him outright and scuppering all chance of justice.

    Based on what I know of the Mike Brown incident he was an unarmed robbery suspect, correct? So in my opinion no, killing him with multiple fatal gunshot wounds was far from justified or "right". He supposedly attacked and threatened the arresting officer but, of course, the only person who can confirm that or not is now dead.

    You change it by making mixed communities - mixed race, mixed income, mixed age so that we don't have poor people living in hovels robbing off each other, scrambling like rats in a barrel. Rich all living together in gated communities, literally sealed off from normal society. And old people all tucked away in homes. Numerous sociological and anthropological studies have shown that this is the best way to house people.

    And the whites got out because the whiter you are the richer you are, generally speaking, no matter where you live.

    No, there is a clear racial split in America (and indeed every other multiracial country). As you well know i'm sure, so quit the devil's advocate.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 27, 2014
  5. TheHolyGoalie

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    The furore over this seems to be based on the fact that the policeman is white and the guy he shot was black, race is at the forefront of the debate when it's America's devil may care attitude to guns that's the main problem.

    If it was a white/white incident or black/black there'd be very little said about it.
     
  6. Dáibhí

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    Not when you're advocating "burning cop cars" it isn't. There are plenty (in fact, the majority) of cops who do a sterling job under quite a lot of pressure, isn't there?

    You're probably not as * off as the poor shop owners who have had their businesses ransacked though, right? I mean, these shop owners aren't wealthy chain store owners, they're mostly owners of the "mom & pop" stores, aren't they?

    Protesting is one thing, but using the situation as an excuse to steal is entirely another, and will always see more condemnation than support.

    Luckily not everyone is so selfish;

    A small sliver of good news from a bad situation. Those who looted her shop should hang their heads in shame.

    Didn't the autopsy report show that the guy was shot in the hand and in the chest? That doesn't fit with him being shot whilst running away, does it?

    In an ideal situation of course they should. But when you have someone that you believe has intentions of hurting or even killing you, you have to act on impulse.

    It's not always possible to aim for the legs, especially as that won't stop a person from pulling their own trigger (if he had a weapon, which Wilson may have very well thought he could have being as how he's already a criminal suspect at this point), and the chances are that they won't be aiming for the legs.

    Well, from what I've read Brown was suspected of 2nd degree robbery, which means he used force to carry out the task, right? This image taken from cctv of the shop that he robbed kind of backs up the fact that he used force. The guy he's manhandling is the shop owner, by the way;

    [​IMG]

    The defending officer says that he made a move for his gun, which resulted in him shooting at his hand (this has been backed up by forensic reports), and that he shot him in the chest and the head as he charged at him.

    Eye witnesses claimed that he shot him whilst he was running away (which he obviously didn't if the autopsy is to be believed), whilst others changed their stories throughout the case, which obviously wouldn't have helped their cause.

    With all due respect, neither you nor I can really judge what is and isn't justified, can we? We're not cops who have to deal with an armed criminal element on a daily basis, are we?

    There has to be a certain element of trust in the police to do their job. If not, then the game is a bogey.

    That all sounds fantastic. How are you going to do it?

    Is the idea to force people to live together? Force wealthy people to live in poorer neighbourhoods? Finance poorer people living in wealthy areas?

    People will live where they feel most comfortable, and the simple truth is that most people feel more at ease among people like themselves.

    I know it's not the done thing, but it's human nature. We see it happening in the UK as well. Immigrants come here and form their own communities, choosing to live with people of a similar background, who speak the same language, have the same customs etc.

    It happens in places like Spain too, with British people forming their own communities and so on.

    Yup, and it's not going to go away for the reasons i've outlined above.

    Short of forcing people at gunpoint to live together it's an issue that multicultural nations will have to deal with.
     
  7. AwesomeCaz

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    Aye I know i'm not suggesting we just move everyone into Utopian newtowns, but you have to understand the root causes of people rioting and going mad.

    As for people trusting the cops - I think the main reason they don't is because they (the police) keep shooting black guys :56:

    Any trust there was has now well and truly ran out.
     
  8. 31B404 Gold Member Gold Member

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    No, still irrelevant. Their personality of the cop has nothing to with actions of protest. Their personality also has nothing to do with how the state deals with these protests. They are after all, "just doing their job" :rolleyes:

    I don't know. I know they got into a Wal-Mart and hopefully they took everything and got away.

    And the "Mom & Pop" shops aren't completely innocent in this. They don't exist in a vacuum. They are part of the society that dangles goods in front of people all the time. Telling them that their lives will be better and more meaningful if they have such goods. While at the same time they are simultaneously stopping* disadvantages groups from being able to own such goods.

    And in reality these small businesses are just as exploitive as big businesses.

    * These small business types always campaign for lower taxes and cuts to public spending. Reducing access to education and all that brings. Just one example.

    The only time people stand up and take notice of these protests is when they step outside what the state deems acceptable forms of protest. You can have three million people marching and nothing will happen.

    This is true the world over. From Ferguson; to Ireland, to London, to the West Bank and to Rio de Janeiro. People have to step outside acceptability to get anywhere. Even if groups (that where always going to criticise them no matter what - media groups, business owners, police etc) criticise them.
     
  9. Overkill187 Batshitcrazy

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    Let me get this straight: a police officer (trained with guns and experienced with stressful situations) guns down an unarmed youngster with 8 shots and gets away with it.

    No trial, no justice.
     
  10. Spring Time Gold Member Gold Member

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    Was your man not exploiting the little shop owner above where he has him by the neck.

    & the mom & pop shop mentioned above is a bakery. They can buy food
    there & survive, or wreck it & pinch the food.

    Power of * being dribbled from you above.
     
  11. TimFloyd Gold Member

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    Haha I had no idea about this case when I posted this but listened to a podcast today and they said he had just robbed somewhere? :smiley-laughing002:
     
  12. 31B404 Gold Member Gold Member

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    Yes, he was assaulting him. Of course that doesn't justify Brown's subsequent murder.

    Your point being?
     
  13. Nowhereman

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    Yup.
     
  14. Drakhan Nac Mac Feegle Gold Member

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    It's just a pity that the looters in Ferguson aren't getting a taste of their own medicine from the owners of the businesses they are looting.
    Killing a few of these * would benefit society as a whole and the shopkeepers would not do time as they have the perfect excuse - Self Defence.
     
  15. Nowhereman

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    I sympathize with why black Americans are angry. I can't empathize because I'm white and have never had to deal with any sort of cultural marginalization on that level like they have.

    But for the life of me, I can't understand how looting, injury people, and making people unemployed right before the holidays after you burn their place of business down is anyway to honor a dead kid. On one hand, you want a better community, yet you destroy your community and make it even harder for those in your community to climb what is an extremely difficult latter to climb...

    And if you look at the pictures, it's not just black people. Plenty of white idiots in those pictures as well. * em.
     
  16. CelticBhoyDavid

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    Yup. Irony overload, eh.

    Spot on. If Wilson was a black cop it would have been scattered about the news for about a day and not much more would have been said.

    You know, the funny thing is, as soon as a situation like this happens, there are protests everywhere demanding some sort of change, people go up in arms about it, and the media go nuts. Where are all the protests to change things when there are black on black murders? Chicago, New York, L.A., Detroit....huge percentage of black on black crime and nothing gets said, done, or reported yet as soon as a white man (well, only ½ white but that doesn't matter when race-baiters are reporting in the media) kills a black teen in self defence or a white cop kills a black teen the whole country goes into meltdown.

    Just one such incident from Chicago last year -
    http://abc7chicago.com/archive/9118247/

    Imagine if it were a white man that done the shooting. By the way - notice that the news article does not once mention about anyone being black, yet continually throughout Wilson's case (and even Zimmerman's case) it's ALWAYS been reported as "white police officer" and "unarmed black teen".

    60 witnesses interviewed, a lot contradicting each other, and even contradicting the evidence. Also, there have now been witnesses coming forward to say what they originally saw was wrong and changed their story.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ils-autopsy-admitted-didn-t-shooting-all.html

    Even Dorian Johnson, Brown's friend who was with him at the time, said he saw Wilson fire at Brown as he was running away, but Wilson never opened fire until Brown started to come towards Wilson. Plus Johnson was hiding behind a car and didn't see the shooting.

    The trial would have been a complete mess and the grand jury were right not to indict Wilson.

    Correct - about 10 minutes before he was shot. Reaches over the counter, helps himself to boxes of cigars then just walks out, roughing up the store owner on his way.
    [ame]http://youtu.be/R5ga8xM8W4M[/ame]

    One store where looters tried to get into it, had to quickly run the opposite direction as the store owner was actually armed. I'm surprised he didn't actually shoot anyone, and he would have been completely justified in doing so.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2014
  17. Jhoker

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    I still dont know what to think of the mike brown shooting, but the Trayvon shooting was the one that got me real mad, how does zimmerman get away with that?
     
  18. Dáibhí

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    The state was dealing with criminal behaviour on a mass scale. This wasn't a bunch of black people walking through the streets protesting, they were destroying the place, peoples property and livelyhoods.

    Does none of that register with you?

    Well, try finding out then.

    Yeah, more criminal behaviour. If they act like criminals they should be considered as such.

    I honestly don't know how to reply to this. What the * are you talking about?

    I'll tell you what, if the protesters had marched right up to the local court house and staged an illegal sit-in protest they would have got coverage. And they would have received widespread support from people like me.

    The police would have been filmed dragging unarmed civilians out of the place, raising awareness of the issue.

    But there's nothing to be gained from that, right? There's nothing that can be stolen in the court house I'd imagine.
     
  19. Overkill187 Batshitcrazy

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    That sounds like regular criminal investigation proceedings to me. That's not a trial.


    It doesn't change the fact an unarmed youngster was shot 8 times. over here whenever a police officer shoots, an investigation will follow just to see if his actions were proportionate.

    Whenever police officers get away with homicide, justified or not, the death of a human being at least deserves to be looked at in a court of law.

    There's a reason why there's so many more trigger happy cops in the united states than in Switzerland for example.

    *note: I have had to deal with US Police forces in the states multiple times and they have always treated me with respect and dignity. I'm just raging about the small amount of trigger happy psychos/killers in uniforms.
     
  20. angusceltic67

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    Found this!


    8 Horrible Truths About Police Brutality and Racism in America Laid Bare by Ferguson

    Cont......http://www.alternet.org/civil-liber...e-ferguson?paging=off&current_page=1#bookmark