Watched Anybody but Celtic again last nite.

Can you please explain exactly what your argument is from the stats you posted? I don't understand what point you think they show.

 

They show we recieved more pens , more free kicks, more penalties than them ( seasons 16/17 and 17/18)
In the same time period we recieved far fewer cards than anyone else in the league aswell. The point this shows is that we are not officiated unfairly. An active institutional bias against us would not produce those statistics. It's a point shared and used by fans of neutral clubs whenever our fans start up with this nonsense.

 

No it emphatically does not.

 

We end up with more because we attack most.

 

They are talking about a separate issue. They believe that both the big Glasgow clubs get more than their fair share of the decisions. I would guess that they are probably correct. Big club bias exists in every league and it surely must exist in ours. Sometimes in Europe, we are on the receiving end.
It's not OK and I understand their frustration; it is, however, a completely separate issue and a completely different dynamic to what we are talking about in this thread. Since you keep bringing it up, I'll briefly deal with it so that we can get back on topic.

If you are a referee who has to make a decision that you aren't sure about, there are a number of factors that can sway you towards giving the benefit of the doubt to the big club:

1) 60k Celtic fans or 50k Rangers fans screaming at you is just a tad more intimidating than 5k Kilmarnock fans.
2) If your decision costs Motherwell 3 points, it isn't going to put you under the same scrutiny as if your decision costs Celtic or Rangers 3 points. Again this is due to sheer number of fans: there aren't enough Motherwell fans for you to sell papers on the back of these decisions.
3) If your decisions leads to a Dundee v ICT Scottish Cup Final, the TV company will lose a lot of advertising revenue compared to a Celtic v Rangers final, which will in turn affect how much money your bosses can negotiate the next time the TV deal comes round. If you do it enough, TV companies will start to put pressure on your bosses, who will start to put pressure on you in turn. If your mistake lets a big club through unfairly, no one will care much, sadly.
4) If your mistake costs Celtic or Rangers the title, you will get a lot more flak than you will if it costs Hibs 4th place or something.

None of this is OK, VAR would help; but it's a separate issue that these fans are discussing. I don't think any non-Rangers fan in their right minds thinks there is institutional bias towards us; McGuire has been pointing out that a lot of them do think there is institutional bias towards the Huns (while at the same time also hating us due to the factors related above).

If you want to discuss that separate issue, you should start a separate thread, mate. Bringing it up in here every other post just muddies the waters.

 

Why do you think this follows? Surely it just shows what we all know: even now they play a more physical style and we play a more possession oriented style and attack more. We are by far the best footballing team in the country under Brendan. Even when they beat us fairly at Ibrox in December, they did it by outfighting us, their football was not exactly dazzling.

And that's just this season, you mention the previous 2: the fact is that they were a terrible team last season and the one before.

 

Surely if there was an institutional bias for the huns and against us, that would manifest itself in games v the other teams most. We would be given poor decisions that would cost us points against Hibs and Killie to help a Hun title push. But now you are saying the ref will often help us out in those game because of the big club pressure?

Which is it ....

A 50-50 decision v Killie will go against us to help a Hun title push

Or

A 50-50 decision will go for us because 50k Celtic fans are more intimidating that 5k Killie fans?

 

No they don't .
They think this notion and this documentary is beyond parody.
They think there is big club bias towards both Old firm clubs , and that we both get equally special treatment.

https://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php?/topic/229396-anyone-but-celtic/

 

My first post to you last night I'm sure was because you were using follow follow as your case for defence and balance..

What next. Pedophilia? That's their favourite go to on there and Hun media. Hearts/Aberdeen and Motherwell are all always at it as well. I suppose because that's the opinion of those scums support that who are we to argue eh?

Genuinely I think you're delusional..

They have a striker with something like 4 red's and double figures yellows this season. An absolute animal and cheat. Isn't it common sense why he would get far far far more disciplinary problems than our main striker Edouard? Who barely puts in a dirty challenge and I haven't seen him goad or wind up a single defender..

Our midfield trio is McGregor as the deep lying mostly and Christie and Rogic. Compare that to the other hatchet men of the league and see why we aren't wiping everyone out..

We have almost all of the ball and are extremely attacking. Foul after foul is let go on us. You see official's giving the same player's a talking to before the customary last 10 yellow..

The amount of clear penalties for handball alone this season have been laughable..

You clearly can't be swayed. I find it astonishing since the last 2 month's you're still of the same opinion...nevermind what has gone and been proven before but heyho..

 

Several do.

 

McGuire and Minty seem to be saying otherwise.

 

I'm saying the world is complicated and you can have several things going on at once: they can be incompetent and be affected by big club bias and have institutional bias and in some cases be individually biased towards the establishment club. Indeed this is exactly what happens. This is how the real world works and why it is so much more complicated than a simple story.

Human decision making is all about weighing up many different consequences and motivations.

It's not as neat as your either/scenario, but it's the truth.

 

Only 50% of this forum think there is an institutional bias

I think that's harsh considering only 56% of Celtic fans on this very forum believe there is institutional corruption from officials in this country. The figure who believe that from neutrals will be far, far less. There is an argument to be made that there is often mass exaggeration and selective memories regarding officials from fans of all clubs. Liverpool fans think there is pro United sentiments among the top referees in England, some are absolutely convinced and believe any argument to the contrary is outlandish. Similair situation here imo.

 

"Big club bias is a completely seperate issue and a completely different dynamic to what we are talking about in this thread (institiutional bias) " is what you claimed five minutes ago.

So are you now acknowledging that there are alot of factors at play and its not a simple case of institutional corruption against Celtic? The documentary does not go along with your point in bold. It quite literally claims the refs are for "anyone but Celtic ". I agree with what you have said in bold and I believe it flies in the face of the cut and dried message communicated by the documentary.

 

So 56% believe there is institutional bias. How many for individual?

Anytime I watch us in the pubs down here the full gaffs are going daft at refereeing decisions and often the talk of cheating masonic *..

Our away crowd in Perth last week giving it Hun with a whistle and making sure Douglas Ross got it as well. I'm sure our hardcore away support aren't a fair barometer though of the Celtic support either?

 

I have a thought experiment for you:

Imagine Hugh Dallas was a racist instead of a bigot, that ethnic minorities had been claiming he was racist for years and had been told they were paranoid. Further imagine that he had later lost his job because of a racist email instead of a bigoted one. Now finally imagine that, in spite of being fired in disgrace, he somehow still had the influence to get his equally racist (in this scenario- you yourself admitted that his son is a clear Hun) son fast tracked to the SPL.

Now, wouldn't the media be all over this? Wouldn't everyone rightly conclude that Scottish refereeing was institutionally racist? Wouldn't the whole country be appalled and rightly demand that heads roll? Probably politicians would get involved.

But of course they aren't racist, they're just bigots. So that's alright then. Nothing to see here.

 

No one serious on this thread ever claimed that institutional and individual bias are the only thing that affects refereeing decisions. We are claiming that it exists, that it is a problem and that it has got much worse this season with them now mounting a title challenge.

Have you been attacking a straw man this whole time?

 

I'm not debating individual bias. Individual bias will probably exist everywhere and is a person to person problem relating to professionalism of an individual. English refs would end all that . The documentary states there is clear institutional corruption. 44% of Celtic fans polled disagree with that , me being one of them.

 

He went on to become head of the refereeing department as well..

He has had a hand in probably all our main official's operating at the minute..

Let that sink in..

 

Farry and Dallas, were they not part of the institution. And when we rented Hampden we were not allowed to fly the tricolour. Whether you don’t see it or not there is a problem in this country towards our club and the Irish diaspora as a whole.