The Offensive Behaviour at Football & Threatening Communications (Scotland) Bill

The minister went on to tell the committee that singing Flower of Scotland or * Save the Queen would not be considered offensive behaviour under the legislation.
However, she said each case would depend on individual circumstances and cited an example of having seen Celtic fans making signs of the cross to Rangers fans in an "aggressive" manner, which may potentially be construed as offensive.

Aggressive would not be the correct word to use here, more so flippant or riling would have been better, but all the same, she has a point. I would have added players to the list.

1. You walk on to the pitch touch the grass and then proceed to bless yourself

2. Blessing yourself with the sole intent to direct it to opposition fans i.e. waiting till you walk up to the goals of the opposite supporters before blessing yourself.

There is a difference between the two and any fair minded person would see this.

When do you ever see anyone up in arms when players walk on to the pitch blessing themselves?
People are not stupid, they can tell when someone is trying to get one over them and the fact that legislation is coming out to prevent scenario 2 from happening I think is a good thing.

It is a bit like the fact that we all need to pee, you can’t use that as an excuse when caught doing it up the close.

The Strathclyde Police Assistant Chief Constable Campbell Corrigan said police would not be wading into a football crowd trying to take out large numbers of fans.
If this is the case then supporter bans should be put in place in the same way UEFA have done so regarding Rangers in their away ties.

I just hope they don’t start taking us to task regarding our historical songs that we sing.
No matter how much we see them as part of our culture and history I reckon the word offensive can be so open book, it will be used against us.

Play them at their own game, we have many Celtic songs in our locker to keep us going for many a month, whilst working over time to record every breath they take across the river to nail them further into the ground.

Let’s not fight these new laws, use them to work for us.
.

 

http://www.lawscot.org.uk/news/press-releases/2011/june/news_20110621

Law Society warns new bill may cause "confusion"

The Law Society of Scotland today, Tuesday 21 June, voiced concerns over the Scottish Government's proposed new laws for tackling sectarianism, arguing the legislation may cause greater confusion rather than adding clarity.

The Society raised concerns during the first evidence session of the Scottish Parliament's new Justice Committee. Bill McVicar, Convener of the Society's Criminal Law Committee, gave oral evidence after raising concerns last week over the speed at which the legislation was being taken through Holyrood.

Speaking after giving evidence, Mr McVicar said:" The Scottish Government is to be commended for focusing on the issue of sectarianism so early in this new Scottish Parliament. Ministers are rightly sending out a strong message that this kind of behaviour in any form is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.

"Nevertheless, it's arguable that the majority of areas in the Bill are already covered by existing offences, such as the common law breach of the peace. The Bill's definition of what is regarded as unacceptable behaviour at football matches may also prove difficult to determine in practical situations. There is a real risk that this additional legislation actually ends up causing more confusion rather than add any clarity."

The Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Bill, published last week, aims to tackle the recent issues affecting Scottish football and introduces two new offences to deal with offensive behaviour at football matches and threatening communications. The Bill also seeks to cover offences in threatening communications made by British citizens outwith Scotland.
The Society's Deputy Director of Law Reform Alan McCreadie who also presented evidence to the committee this morning said: "The provisions relating to threatening communications made outwith Scotland by British citizens will be very difficult to enforce and there are questions over the likelihood of any successful prosecutions.

"All of these issues underline the importance of the parliament having time to properly consider these proposed new laws. On such an important issue as this, we need effective law that is workable and not open to successful challenge. At the very least, the parliament should consider inserting an appropriate sunset clause and review mechanism. This would all help to ensure the legislation is meeting the government's laudable efforts to tackle this most serious of issues."

 

STV showed YouTube clips of both sets of supporters singing "sectarian" songs.

The huns were singing about being up to their knees in * blood whilst we were singing Paddy McCourt's * Army. You couldn't make it up, idiots!

 

i was actually just going to say this too buddy! * ridiculous. obviously they * dont know what the word * means. and of course talking about the crossing stuff aswell. does this mean fans will be arrested in the stands and given this 5 year jail *?

 

can you imagine a Celtic fan watching a penalty been taken at a game, on TV blessing himself
as if to pray, the opponent misses it, what then. and as we are the most likely to show this "emotion", can that be seen as victimization.

 

http://www.celticfc.net/newsstory?item=1187

even celtic calling the bill "rushed"

* mess of a law probably more accurate

 

I agree why should the honest people of Glasgow or any other place put up with this keep them out of the city centre and make them pay the bill it costs to police them if they can charge football clubs then they should be hit as well. Keep them to the MAIN roads with exclusions and no disruption by taking routes through housing estates that goes for all marches. The focus is on football but why? scetarianism is not exclusive to football.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13883763

ffs it was only a matter of time

the fact some folk are so obsessed with getting rid of Catholic schools says a lot more about them than the schools

typical Tory *

 

First Ministers Questions on BBC 2, first up the Sectarian Bill. Salmond has now delayed the deadline for passing the bill until the end of the year, pending further discussion.

 

* *.

At the end of the day, he is allowed to express his opinion...but if he wishes to express these in such a manner that is entwined with this bill, then he should be made to provide some concrete 'statistics' to back his claim up.

 

well there's a surprise; Lamont went to Kilwinning Academy......

no huns there after all

 

Good to hear this farce of a bill has been delayed!

 

"2. Blessing yourself with the sole intent to direct it to opposition fans i.e. waiting till you walk up to the goals of the opposite supporters before blessing yourself."

Artur Boruc used to go onto the park and walk to the goal he was defending, he would then quietly bless himself in the same way as countless players do across the World. He did at at whatever ground he was at.

* the wee laddie at Man Utd kneels in the centre of the park and holds his arms up to the Heavens. Unless he's at Ibrox obviously.

Is anyone suggesting that Artur Boruc should not carry out this simple act of devotion to his * because some bigots decided to take offence to it. Only in Scotland would anyone even consider that a reasonable position to take.

 

This is the full statement from Mr Lamont which he sent in reply to my e-mail.


Thank you Presiding Officer.
Introduction
I am sure we are all agreed on the need to tackle the scourge of sectarianism in our society. It may seem an obvious point but it is important that whatever disagreements there may be on aspects within the Bill are looked at in this context. None of us want to see our society blighted by these problems in the future.
In the limited time that I have available to me this morning, I want to focus on 3 areas of concern – firstly the lack of consultation that there has been for this Bill; secondly the uncertain nature of some of the offences which the Bill creates and the unintended consequences; and thirdly, the wider problem of sectarianism in small parts of our society.
Speed of legislation
Concerns have been raised in a number of quarters over the speed with which this legislation is being pushed through parliament, both by the Justice Committee and by a number of other individuals and organisations. Given the nature of events we witnessed at the end of the last football season, it is understandable that the Government wants to move swiftly to address the problems of sectarianism. After all, we have seen some very ugly scenes plastered across our television screens and newspapers in recent months. But we should not pretend that these problems are new. We should be wary of falling into a pattern of legislating to suit short term media headlines, rather than to find long-term solutions to Scotland’s problems.
Bill McVicar of the Law Society said that time must be made for proper consultation and scrutiny – “there is a risk that legislation could be passed which does not meet its objective or is inconsistent with existing law, making it unworkable.”
These views were reflected in a number of the concerns discussed at committee and which I am sure we will hears from other Members today. Legislation can make a difference, but we have a responsibility to ensure that it is fair, workable and consistent.

Interpretation
There are also concerns about how the legislation might be interpreted. For example, if you are a republican Scot, could you then claim that someone singing * Save The Queen is a sectarian attack on you? Nether the Minister or the Lord Advocate were able or willing to rule out this possibility, which I have concerns about.
It would be ridiculous if we passed legislation that had the consequence of criminalising those singing their national anthem.
Even more so than with usual legislation on criminal behaviour, much will depend on the police and procurator fiscal interpreting the laws. However, the ambiguity allowed for in the Bill will make their job extremely difficult. What about songs which have more than one set of lyrics, but have been known to be offensive in the past? What about football supporters humming or whistling tunes of offensive songs without actually singing any words of the song? Or what about songs which do not refer to religious aggravation but instead celebrate events such as the Ibrox Disaster or the death of former prominent players? This may not be sectarianism but it is equally likely to incite hatred and equally vile in its tone. And it is unclear what proof will be used in cases of this nature. Will whether someone is arrested or not whilst singing one of these songs depend on the tone of their voice or the look in their eye? This Bill is clearly putting a lot of additional responsibility on our police officers. That is no reason in itself not to legislate, but it does demand that we tread very carefully before venturing down such an ambiguous path.
The ambiguity of the legislation is a real concern. I repeat my earlier point that everyone in the chamber wants our society to be rid of the bile that has infected some of our communities for too long. But I am concerned that this legislation is being forced through this parliament in an unseemly rush for no apparent reason.
Society more generally
However, as a more general point, I have real concerns that we are trying to tackle a problem once it is too late. The problem of sectarianism in parts of west central Scotland is much bigger and wider than just football matches. The reality is that the young men who are at these football matches and are acting in the way that are is as a result of conditioning which has started from a very early age . I would argue that in certain parts of society – admittedly small – in west Scotland have promoted this culture including through our education system. This segregation of our young people has brought them up to believe that the two communities are to be kept separate.
Presiding Officer, this is something I know a little about having been brought up and educated through the system of west central Scotland, the same system that has produced many – if not all – of those were responsible for the shocking behaviour which we have witnessed in recent months.
I am a former pupil of Kilwinning Academy. A school which I am incredibly proud of and a school which gave me a excellent education, got me to Glasgow University and probably taught me more about life than many other schools might have done.
However, the school – or more accurately, the system - also conditioned me into thinking that there was something different between those of us who went to Kilwinning Academy and those who went to St Michael’s Academy around the corner, the Catholic School.
Yes, my school was in theory a co-educational comprehensive, non-denominational school. Yes, I remember there being some pupils who originated from China or India, but the school was predominately white and Protestant. I remember only one Catholic class mate – or rather, only one class mate was prepared to admit to being Catholic.
Every morning the buses from the Garnock Valley would bus the pupils past Kilwinning Academy to the Catholic School. In my naïve years, I had to ask my parents to explain why the buses drove past a school which I thought was perfectly adequate to go to another school.
Unfortunately others at my school were less naïve. When the old firm played or dates of historical importance, I clearly recall the stones and eggs that were thrown at the buses ferrying the pupils to their school. The pupils in the buses would spit at the Kilwinning Academy pupils as they walked to school.
Of course, the school tried to take tough action against those responsible. But when there are so many involved in such behaviour, that becomes difficult.
And so, the education system in this part of Scotland is effectively the state sponsored conditioning of these sectarianism attitudes. And I say this as someone who believes that as a Christian country we should do more to promote Christian values in our young people and support religious education in schools.
Clearly these attitudes are being entrenched at home and the wider community. It wasn’t just football supporters or pubs which were segregated in this way. More respectable institutions like the Rotary Clubs, Golf Clubs or other similar groups were split based on religious groups.
Therefore why should we be surprised by this when in west central Scotland we allow our children to be educated into believing that there something so different between the two religions that doesn’t allow them to share the same school building? It is little wonder that parts of our society continue to segregate themselves in later life when that is what they are taught through the school system.
Of course, I am not saying that all faith based schools should be scrapped but in certain parts of west central Scotland we need to acknowledge that this system is simply promoting the attitudes we are trying to control.
Conclusion
Presiding Officer, the Government has indicated its willingness to listen to parties from across the chamber and Govern in a consensual manner. Given the concerns that have been expressed today, I hope that the Minister will reflect on these and ensure that the Bill is as fair, workable and consistent as possible. We all want to find a long term solution to the problems that have blighted some of our communities for too long, but I fear that this legislation is more of an answer to short term media hysteria than a well thought out and long term attempt to tackle this grave problem.

 

He makes a lot of valid points there.

 

Someone on KDS got this information as part of an email response from his local MSP.

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The first annual analysis of charges reported under the Act was published in June. It showed that there were 268 charges reported under Section 1 the Offensive Behaviour at Football Legislation. The majority of the charges were for “hateful” behaviour (46.6%) and “threatening” behaviour (44.4%); while all 46 charges for “other behaviour that a reasonable person would be likely to consider offensive” were for behaviour which referenced terrorism or terrorist organisations (17.2% of all charges).



The vast majority of charges for “hateful” behaviour were for behaviour derogatory towards Roman Catholicism (83%), with 15.1% for behaviour derogatory towards Protestantism and 1.9% for behaviour derogatory towards Judaism. The report on charges reported under the Act in 2012-13 is available

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Not surprising really, even though the MSP in question goes on to defend the bill.

 

You honestly mean to tell me that you've never read a post on this subject that goes along the lines of "well, if they didn't sing such and such at the games they wouldn't be getting grief"?

 

In here yes in the thread you accused people of being like that no.
Now as I was pretty much the only one who was saying the living wage was not necessarily needing to be paid and you post that pish , Is it really surprising that I have come to the conclusion that you mean me as I said pish and i expected better.

 

You honestly thought that when I said;

That I meant there had been people saying this in that particular thread? Seriously?

Are you of the belief that we should retain our Irish Republican roots and that fans who sing pro-IRA songs at games shouldn't be hammered under the Offensive Behaviour at Football & Threatening Communications Bill?

 

Well as you posted it in the other thread .. obviously not really complicated. So yes I took it to be aimed at me as no doubt it was.

Honestly I am proud of my Irish roots and if people want to sign about the ira they can, as its not sectarian, if it crosses that line they deserve all that comes their way, as they are no different really to the dead club then, as they need the sectarian pish to (almost) survive.
Is it something I would sign No, but as i said if its what they wanna do fire in.
So unfortunately my answer is not what you banked on.