MMA Thread

Discussion in 'Other Sports' started by HectorTheTaxman, Aug 23, 2012.

Discuss MMA Thread in the Other Sports area at TalkCeltic.net.

  1. CookieMonster BOTB King Gold Member

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    Arsken will win easily I think, know it won’t happen but want to see him eventually fight Khabib, that would be so interesting to see.
     
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  2. TimFloyd Gold Member Gold Member

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    It is blatant.

    He tested positive for clomid and letrozole.

    There isn’t even an argument why you would test positive for those two substances.

    Clomid to aid recovery in post cycle therapy to kick start your natural testosterone production and letrozole while on cycle as an aromatising inhibitor to control raised estrogen levels because of the higher amount of testosterone in your body.

    The chances are a * pill being tainted with those exact two substances is just beyond ridiculous.
     
  3. Darnok

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    It was blatant because: Jones did not declare either of the two supplements he eventually sent to be tested after he was caught. He tested positive for two substances, but his * pill contained three. Also, the receipt he provided for the purchase of them actually lists clomiphene as one of the purchases. Lastly, the written declaration of his teammate/supplier was a lie and the initial invoice provided did not contain clomiphene, only the pill. Under examination, Jones' teammate admitted the declaration was a lie and then provided the actual receipt for the pills and clomiphene.

    So Jones does not declare what he later claims is a potential cause of contamination, his supplier lies and actually has purchased one of the substances that Jones tests for, and Jones is somehow able to take a rogue pill that does not contain the third substance. Yeah, Jones was just really unlucky that time. And the other four times too. I see he is celebrating a clean result for his last fight too, I wonder if 'jet fuel' is his pet name for his PEDs?
     
  4. King of Kings

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    I'm not saying considering him the GOAT means you're a Jones fanboy, but I do think you have to overlook certain things quite drastically.

    @TimFloyd post is spot-on. Chlomid and Letrozole are well known, and commonly used, agents to restart testosterone production after a cycle. I wasn't actually aware that's what he tested positive for, but it's about as much of a smoking gun as you can get in these cases. It would be interesting to see how soon after his dramatic body transformation the actual test took place.
     
  5. Big Mick Un pour tous, tous pour un Gold Member

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    Jon Jones is the Rangers of mma.
     
  6. MacEwan23 My Balls Was Hot Gold Member

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    What fights do you think he was juiced?

    I understand the basic science behind it, it’s a broken record from people that dislike him at this point. People against him will leave out information to suit their argument and people for him will leave out information to suit theirs.

    However what I’m saying is like a broken record too. When an arbitration comes to the conclusion that he didn’t cheat, yet three guys in a Celtic forum you, @Darnok and @TimFloyd think he did (tagging yous so you can see it), who’s opinion holds the most weight?

    You have as much evidence available as they do. They think he didn’t intentionally take the substances, you do. So we don’t really know what happened and you can’t say it’s blatant. We will never know, you just have to form an opinion from what we know. I respect yours but you don’t respect others because it looks like we are just ignoring it to suit the GOAT argument.
     
  7. Raoul Duke

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    The pulsing excuse has just given Jones free reign to microdose and test positive for the remainder of his ufc career.
     
  8. MacEwan23 My Balls Was Hot Gold Member

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    It’s not him that’s come up with that though. Why are independent sources saying they’ve seen it in other sports?

    It’s shady as *. A lot shadier than the * pill fiasco for me. I just wish some * would tel the truth.

    Novistsky sitting on the Joe Rogan podcast isn’t enough because who knows if he’s a shady * now or what.
     
  9. TimFloyd Gold Member Gold Member

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    First things first I like Jon Jones and love watching him fight, I don’t care if fighters use PEDS or not I’m just calling a spade a spade here. and I will explain why.

    What fights do I think he was juiced? Unless you’re going back to the TRT Wild West Belfort days then you aren’t technically “juiced” during the fight.

    You are aware of the science of cycling steroids? So on cycle you train/recover more intense for prolonged periods of time?

    For the most part gains made on steroid cycles after a successful pct and diet and training you will keep most of the gains size/strength when off, more a drop of on the strength but you will still hold a fair bit.

    As victor Conte stated in a podcast this is where the doctors come in and have a wealth of knowledge of when and how and what steroids to cycle trying to beat drugs tests.

    I think USADA/Novitzeky have drifted into some murky waters now they are in bed with the UFC
     
  10. MacEwan23 My Balls Was Hot Gold Member

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    Ok so he wasn’t juiced at the time of any fights. What camps was he juicing? What fights did he have an advantage in?

    This is out of curiosity I’m not grilling you.
     
  11. TimFloyd Gold Member Gold Member

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    Well the times that he has failed drug tests in would be an obvious starter.

    Advantage is an extremely hard one to call regarding Jon Jones just because his skill set and talent level is that insane it’s hard to draw a line through it.
     
  12. King of Kings

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    What evidence am I missing? I don’t know a great deal about the case, I watch UFC quite sporadically. What I do believe though is that high level fighters (not just in MMA) use PEDs quite extensively. I won’t stick my neck on the line and say the majority, but plenty of big names in the UFC have talked in such terms before. It’s bit a case of PED user get caught, everyone else is clean so much as, small fraction of PED users get caught, whilst the vast majority never do.

    When I see Jon Jones I think it’s a case of very blatant PED usage. The positive results coupled with the ridiculous physical transformation paint a pretty bad picture imo. I actually think the more compelling argument for his own ability isn’t to say he didn’t use PEDs, it’s to say that plenty of his opponents were using too.
     
  13. King of Kings

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    On the subject of advantage - if you were to assume a fighter did a basic testosterone cycle combined with a full post cycle therapy programme (where the chlomid and letero come in), I would say they have an advantage in every fight after that.

    That doesn’t mean he would’nt have won every fight since, or that his opponents weren’t taking even more, but the strength gains from cycles do tend to stick around to a fairly significant degree.
     
  14. MacEwan23 My Balls Was Hot Gold Member

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    I never said you were missing any, I said we have as much as the arbitration did so why should our decision be different? It’s both opinions based on the evidence available and nobody knows the real truth. It can be twisted and a case can be put forward for both sides.

    What you know about the case and how much UFC you watch doesn’t mean your opinion is gospel. There will be people in the industry that disagree with you.

    What’s your opinion on him being the GOAT if you believe many of his opponents use too?
     
  15. MacEwan23 My Balls Was Hot Gold Member

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    All the PED’s in the world can’t teach you to time, throw and land the head kick that ended the DC fight and that was ruled a no contest. Maybe the “advantage” would have came in the later rounds.
     
  16. King of Kings

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    I tend to divide the whole GOAT debate into those who have tested positive
    and those who haven’t. In the former, Jones is certainly in the running. I would have GSP ahead of him, and possibly Fedor too. I think at some point it just becomes too subjective. MMA is still a young sport so I would expect plenty more names to be in contention for the GOAT status over the next couple of decades.
     
  17. Raoul Duke

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    But it can give you the speed and power to knock DC down.
     
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  18. King of Kings

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    People have to remember that even golfers, darts players and professional shooters have been busted for PEDs.

    It doesn’t give you technique, but it certainly can make executing that technique much easier.
     
  19. MacEwan23 My Balls Was Hot Gold Member

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    Obviously more GOAT contenders will come over time, doesn’t mean you can’t name someone the GOAT now.

    Do you believe Fedor has never taken PED’s?
     
  20. MacEwan23 My Balls Was Hot Gold Member

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    Technique is more important than speed and power when talking about the margins that PEDs give. If DC was on the PED’s that Jones is accused of being on instead, Jones still wins in my opinion. I refuse to believe that PED’s played a hand in Jones landing that kick. That rocked him and he tripped him, before finishing him. That’s all technique.

    That was technique and studying DC’s movement, the fact Jones changed his entire game plan mid fight and baited DC into lowering his hands as he realised that DC leaned slightly to the right, therefore into his kick is astonishing fight IQ.

    I’ve said technique, DC and PED’s too much.