Minimum alcohol pricing approved

Discussion in 'TalkCeltic Pub' started by Ron Swanson, Nov 15, 2017.

Discuss Minimum alcohol pricing approved in the TalkCeltic Pub area at TalkCeltic.net.

  1. celtic warrior

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    Pubs died when pool became more than 20p a game and having the cues behind the bar and having to put in a £5 deposit to use one.

    I don't know enough about this as obviously in London and Wales this isn't a thing, yet. But whether we agree with it or not they had to start somewhere, I can't imagine they've adopted this with the thought of it being THE answer to alcohol abuse and nothing else will be put in place.

    It's a start, whether it's liked or not and I would assume over the years it will be seen as the starting point of a wider range of helpful steps towards battling alcohol abuse.
     
  2. Onefootwonder

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    On the car front years ago it was all the cheap cars that were the best sellers. Now 10 of the top 20 selling cars in the UK are more expensive German cars. You can see that on the road.

    A quick look at Autotrader and there is 3000 Mondeos up for sale, but 9500 BMW 3 series.

    Most people finance their cars. It has always been the case. We've gone into a little dip recently with Brexit and Dieselgate, but more than double the amount of finance was borrowed on cars in 2018 over even 2012.

    House prices are still holding well in most areas.

    There's a record amount of flights in the sky around the UK too. People are travelling more.

    Even things like expensive motorhomes are selling like hotcakes and people willing to pay big money to hire them too. The market has gone through the roof. It's not at the expense of foreign travel either.

    There is more large gigs than ever in Scotland. Capacities are higher and attendances greater. At the same time ticket prices have rocketed. Even Aberdeen have just built an arena bigger than Glasgow.


    There is still a long way to go, but the standard of living is far higher now than 20 years ago. There is still poverty, but in general a lot of people are far better off.

    Designer clothes have always been popular. Even as a young kid on poor wages I managed. Out in the sun today and a massive amount of people can afford £150 sunglasses.


    As for the price of drink, there is no need for a pint of Tennents to cost what is does. The duty is around 43p a pint and it costs pennies to make.

    The Irish owners of Tennents are seeing their profits and share price rising fast.

    Big breweries are desperately trying to buy craft breweries as they see their market share growing at rapid rates.

    The standard of living is higher now for more people than it has ever been.

    Go back to YouTube and find videos from your area from 90s. Aside a few things I wouldn't want to rewind.
     
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  3. Onefootwonder

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    On another note I was reading about TRNSMT festival.

    The same directors, under a new company, supplied the staff like they did with TITP. They went bust owing over £400,000 in tax.

    TRNSMT used the new company and everyone was paid minimum wage. Worse still all the tips were confiscated from the people who earned them.

    People in Glasgow need to get behind the workers who have been ripped off.
     
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  4. clonbhoy

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    Reply in the quote above.
     
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  5. Onefootwonder

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    The average person isn't £15k in debt. That's the average household figure for unsecured debt. When you read about it that also includes things like student debts which it highlights is £50k to some people. We need to stop a lot of the university courses that serve no purpose in the real world. It's a waste of money to all.




    Cars have always been financed. The market has changed from HP to PCP, but rarely has cash ever been king. Dealers hate people buying cars with cash. Not far short of 90% of new cars are bought on PCP alone. I think the modern PCP is a terrible thing for most people. PCP is a vehicle to pull people into further debt and it's working very well for car manufacturers. People are only too happy to do it. Heavily involved with the car scene I could write a book on this matter. PCP will replace PPI soon enough.

    A total clampdown on the car finance market has to take place. People in poor financial circumstances apply, and pass, the level of credit checks to get an expensive car. I know people that don't even have one instalment in the bank and plenty of debt pass for £40k cars. People can get finance for cars worth double their salary if not more.

    I don't know how often I have advised people not to get themselves into the level of debts they do, but they really don't see it as an issue. It's normal and I'm a bore giving out such advice.

    Flights have been cheap for ages. It's not the flights that are the expensive part of going on holiday.


    Music has changed I will agree with you that far. Back in the 90s people went out and found the bands. Now social media tells you who to like. Up and coming bands play out in clubs to nobody. Crap bands get big followings when social media says so. Social media is far too powerful.

    New bands are getting pushed out at music clubs as the attendances are dreadful even when free. Pump on some 90s tribute act and you can ask good ticket money and fill the place. Big venues are far busier and far more expensive for recognised artists or the latest craze.

    I feel sorry for people that need to use food banks. That should never be a thing that should ever happen, but again some people are now ok with abusing what should only be helping the needy.

    Whilst companies are forced to sell their stuff for nothing to compete with cheap imports we are *. Unless people start paying proper prices the same cycle will happen. No company should be paying wages that means employees also requires benefits to live.

    Everyone is looking for the cheapest for themselves and not giving two hoots for anyone else. The minimum wage is far too low. Supporting the places that pay minimum wage makes you part of the problem.

    A lot of the homeless surveys find that the majority of people begging aren't homeless. People have lost confidence in who to donate money to.

    Talking about eating out and restaurants. Since 2010 there has been a 43% increase in places to eat in 2017. I can't find stats past that but more eating places are opening all the time. What an incredible stat. 43%..... I knew there was far more, but even I am shocked by that. Watching the TV the other night and Edinburgh apparently has more restaurants per head of population than the rest of the UK.

    High street shops are dropping, but that's because so many buy online. Again supporting companies like Amazon who don't pay their fair share of tax and are poor employers.

    I'm only assuming they didn't mug someone for their sunglasses. I give people some credit. Just walk about any high street and a high proportion of people have designer gear across the board. Even the people that many would stereotype to be poor often manage £100 trainers and £200 jackets.

    There's nothing wrong with the term craft. Just too many people are now using it for anything. The big breweries and now making their own "craft" beers.

    There is now more breweries than ever in the UK, there is less drink being sold, but profits are up. The amount of breweries in the UK has almost doubled in the last 5 years.

    Tennant's aren't Scottish owned. The Scottish institution isn't as Scottish as people think. Tennant's profits are up on their own right. Maybe profits are up as they can tie more pubs into big prices? The C&C chief executive also pointed out that people have moved away from quantity to quality. Their "craft" beers and ciders are mentioned as doing well. Tennant's currently contract brew Innis and Gunn and part own Drygate.

    On the motorhome/campervan front they are everywhere now. The first part of music festivals to sell out now is for vans.

    The issue with recording new private registrations is many either start off as business owned or registered as vans. The caravan club have changed their name to include motorhomes and now have over 1 million members.

    There is 3 motorhome dealers near me just now and a few hire places too. Manufacturers have started letting them out directly as well. The market demand is huge. Some people say it's doubled in just a couple of years.

    Market demand is good and second-hand values are very strong. The same is actually true of the used car market too. Just have a look how many boy racer cars of the 90s are worth good money in the current financial climate. Have a look at the prices of good Peugeot 205 GTI, Fiesta XR2 or a Nova GSI. Start looking at the exotic cars and see how their prices have rocketed too.


    Depression has always been an issue. In the past is was really frowned upon to admit you had issues. Suicide rates were far worse in the late 80/90s. It has halved since 1988.

    Maybe life was actually much tougher in the 80/90s, or maybe the help given these days is a bit better than people say?

    It's also not youngsters who are the most likely to commit suicide. Currently 45-49 is the most common age for men which ties up to people who lived their youth when suicide was at its highest. I wonder if there is something in that?

    I don't think modern life and especially social media is good for people. Far too many people need to conform to what they see and all follow each other like sheep. They get totally mislead and accept so much fake news. Moaning just breeds more moaning and people are vicious behind a keyboard. So many people wrongly feel and behave like victims of something at every opportunity.

    I read that being an Instagram influencer is a real job these days and that the top influencer gets paid $1.2m per post. That's incredible. People get paid that much and have that much influence for one social media advert camouflaged as a genuine post?



    I'm guessing you must be a fair age?

    Think back to the real conditions 25-30 years ago and tell me things haven't progressed? I'm only saying look at YouTube videos as you might twig about how things really were. Nostalgia really blows everything out of proportion.


    I despair at reading the some of the stuff about how hard model life is and how much better things used to be. As a kid of the 80s I had a great upbringing. However, compare it to modern life and people wouldn't tolerate it now.

    We lived in a terraced council house until the early 90s. It has single glazed windows and blow heating that was only warm if you sat next to it.

    A bath was a once a week event I had to share with my sister. My clothes used to be my brother's. This was normal for everyone and not just me.

    We had great neighbours all around us. There was a great community spirit and everyone knew everyone. Come the summer the games of rounders lasted all day with all the parents joining in too.

    We didn't have £10 per session trampoline parks, huge shopping centres, multiplex cinemas or ski slopes, we had to entertain ourselves for nothing.

    I remember my friends always having issues at home and most of their houses were filthy. It wasn't unusual back then. At best the house was yellow from * reek and worst I've no idea how anyone could have lived there. We were ok with that back then.

    There wasn't that many cars in the street back then. Most were old bangers with the occasional Ford Escort being about the poshest of cars. Nobody had two cars.

    Having a chippy was a special treat. Eating out at a restaurant was for very special occasions only.

    Driving down to Ayr to go to Butlins was a massive event. It felt like a foreign holiday driving that far. I also remember we packed the car with food for the week.

    There is still some of the old neighbours still living in the area. The council has spent good money tidying up the houses and on the area. However the community spirit has gone. Good neighbours have been replaced with bad neighbours. The area now has issues it didn't when I was living there.




    Here is where I see the problems for a lot of people. Everybody wants everything. They aren't happy with mediocrity. They want way more than they can afford, but are willing to do anything to get it.

    The "selfie generation" live their life on social media and rather than living their life they need to justify it. They have to keep up and they put unnecessary pressure on themselves.


    40% of the country have less that £100 savings, but the amount borrowed to finance luxury goods goes up and up. People appear to be happy living in debt that they could avoid. If a lot of people lived within their means there wouldn't be as many issues.

    People's expectations are just far too high. They are also totally warped on how they think other people used to live.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2019
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  6. honda

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    I'd have a heart attack owing 15k (no counting mortgage)

    I couldnt imagine not having £100 spare either. I'm not in a well paid job either, but small mortgage and no debts does seem to build up money. Some people just want what they cant afford. Debt builds and then they wonder how they become so skint.

    As for alcohol, I like the fruity * that tastes like big boy ribena for adults and has always been above 50p a unit anyway.
     
  7. Onefootwonder

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    It is that for a lot of people. I couldn't live with the stress of being worried about making bills if something came up. I did get myself into a bit of mess when I was younger trying to afford a life I couldn't and a then partner that didn't contribute.

    I feel sorry for a lot that are forced into that, but it is a voluntary situation for a lot.

    Not all debt is bad though. I bet a lot of people pay for kitchens, bathroom and kitchens on 0% finance. If money was needed up front lots of these companies wouldn't exist. Affordable debt is ok and keeps the economy going.

    As for the social housing they are usually the cheapest areas to buy. Suggest to many young people looking to buy their first house and you are usually told to * off when you suggest these areas.

    People used to start off in cheap houses or flats and build up. Now many refuse point blank to stay anywhere other than a good area to start with.

    On the subject of the cost of housing too here is a chart of monthly mortgage costs v wages.

    The last 3 years wages have gone up and houses down slightly. People look at affordability and only look at the house price. There is no factoring in far lower wages or silly interest rates.

    [​IMG]




    On the drink front I was speaking to the person who has to deal with all the problematic children in there region. She was saying that a huge proportion of young people involved with alcohol related behaviour are on the Dragon Soup.
     
  8. Onefootwonder

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    I was reading what is defined as poverty these days.

    Guess how much a couple with two kids have left to spend after paying all household bills and guess what is defined as the average family?

    Don't Google it. Just make a guess.
     
  9. StPauli1916 Gold Member Gold Member

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    Defined by who ?
     
  10. Onefootwonder

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    It was a report conducted by the Children's society and given backing by other sources.

    Have a little guess at the numbers without looking.
     
  11. Onefootwonder

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    Nobody playing the game then?

    After paying for the household bills having £1760 per month left is now deemed as poverty.

    Apparently the average family have nearly £3000 left per month after paying for the household bills.
     
  12. Big Mick Earth's Best Defender Gold Member

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    £6,500?


    Fs that's * all.
     
  13. honda

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    Well I'm poor as * then :56:
     
  14. Onefootwonder

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    Watching Billy Connolly's Made in Scotland again on the TV the other night he had a good quote about his upbringing.

    "We didn't know we were poor because nobody told us".


    The minimum wage is a joke, but I did think the living wage actually served a purpose. If a young family are living in poverty, with £1760 per month after paying for their house then even the living wage isn't a living wage.
     
  15. Ron Swanson 2 x BOTB winner Gold Member

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    £1700 disposable income isn’t poverty.
     
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  16. celtic warrior

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    * poverty is is being left with £1700 a month as a disposal income?

    * put me on one of those charity adverts that ask for donations becuase I'm left with £200 after everything is paid
     
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  17. Tim-Time 1888 Winner UEFA Champs League Last 16 prediction comp Gold Member

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    Still not working then ..


    Minimum unit pricing for alcohol in Scotland
    BMJ 2019; 366 doi: https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.l5603 (Published 25 September 2019)Cite this as: BMJ 2019;366:l5603
    Linked Research
    Immediate impact of minimum unit pricing on alcohol purchases in Scotland



    1. John D Mooney, senior lecturer in public health1,
    2. Eric Carlin, director2

    1. Author affiliations
    1. Correspondence to: J D Mooney: john.mooney@sunderland.ac.uk
    The rest of the UK should follow Scotland’s lead

    As the seventh most important global risk factor for premature death and accounting for a wide range of acute and chronic morbidities,12 alcohol deservedly attracts the attention of public health policy makers. The need for effective interventions at the population level is urgent not only in Scotland—which has among the highest levels of alcohol attributable harm in Europe,3 but also across the rest of the UK.

    The most effective and cost effective policies to reduce the harm from alcohol are measures that constrain the price, availability, and marketing of alcohol.4 From the empirical and econometric modelling studies available to date, it is clear that minimum unit pricing (MUP),5 which sets a floor price per unit of alcohol, has the potential to be more effective than other pricing options in reducing sales and consumption of high strength, low cost products, that cause the most health harms.

    In 2018, after six years of legal challenges by global alcohol producers, Scotland became the first country in the world to implement a national MUP policy, setting a limit of 50p ($0.62; €0.56) per unit (10 mL/8 g alcohol) below which alcohol cannot be sold. NHS Health Scotland are leading a comprehensive evaluation of the impact in advance of a 2023 review of the policy, as specified in a sunset clause in the legislation. Of course, in an age when complex public health issues such as harm from alcohol require whole system approaches,6 no single policy lever should be seen as a panacea, and MUP is still regarded in Scotland as one component of the overall strategy, as set out for example in the World Health Organization’s SAFER initiative.7

    As described in the linked paper by O’Donnell and colleagues (doi:10.1136/bmj.l5274),8 previous modelling estimates around the introduction of 50p MUP in Scotland suggested a reduction in alcohol consumption of around 3.5% for each drinker annually. This would correspond in the 20 years after implementation to more than 2000 fewer deaths and around 39 000 fewer hospital admissions for Scotland as a whole.9 The authors examined the impact of the MUP policy on the amount and price of alcohol purchased in Scotland in the 34 weeks immediately after implementation. Using a controlled interrupted time series design, they analysed shopping data for 2015-18 from a large and representative panel of British households. They also examined whether changes in alcohol purchases differed by type of alcoholic beverage or household income. Purchases over the equivalent period before MUP implementation were used as controls, as well as purchases in the north of England to assess any cross border effects.

    The main analysis found that the introduction of MUP was followed by a price increase of 6.4p per gram of alcohol (7.9%) and a reduction of 9.5 g (95% confidence interval 5.1 to 13.9) in off-trade alcohol purchased for each * per household. Immediate reductions were most notable for beer, spirits, and cider, including own brand spirits and high strength white ciders. The 9.5 g reduction overall is equivalent to slightly more than one unit of alcohol—roughly half a pint of beer, a third of a can of strong cider, or one measure of spirits.

    The observed reductions of up to 7.6% in purchases were more than double the modelling based estimates, confirming the authors’ conservative assumptions and highlighting that health benefits could be substantially greater. Most compelling from a targeting perspective is that the price increases of alcohol were largest for the higher rather than lower purchasing households and among the lower rather than higher income groups. Figures show a striking contrast in purchasing trends between households in Scotland and England, along with clear incremental differences by household purchasing fifth (doi:10.1136/bmj.l5274).

    The study by O’Donnell and colleagues therefore supports previous modelling assumptions that cheap, high strength alcoholic beverages have the highest price elasticity in terms of responsiveness to price hikes, as do the findings that more economically disadvantaged people are more sensitive to such increases. Additionally, the minimal increases in expenditure for most households are also consistent with modelling estimates,10 supporting the proposition that MUP effectively targets those most at risk of harm from alcohol with a minimal impact on household budgets.

    Although MUP detractors have argued that the policy is regressive, these first real results around the impact in Scotland offer little to support that contention. In the words of the Scottish novelist Val McDermid, on BBC television’s Question Time in 2017: “There is nothing regressive about preventing people in Scotland’s poorest communities drinking themselves to death with cheap alcohol.” Surely it is time to follow Scotland’s lead and implement MUP across the rest of the UK. Action is especially pressing for those regions, such as north east England, with comparable levels of harm from alcohol.


    https://www.bmj.com/content/366/bmj.l5603
     
  18. tarboltontim We have nothing to lose but our chains. Gold Member

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    Thanks, Tim-Time 1888, interesting article.
     
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  19. Onefootwonder

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    The most credible early review into the minimum pricing hasn't found what people thought.

    It has impacted the heavily drinkers and not the lowest earners.

    Drink consumption is down.

    A moderate drinker will be £1.88 per year worse off.

    Early impressions are positive.