London Bridge attacker shot and killed

Discussion in 'TalkCeltic Pub' started by Ron Swanson, Nov 29, 2019.

Discuss London Bridge attacker shot and killed in the TalkCeltic Pub area at TalkCeltic.net.

  1. Ron Swanson 2 x BOTB winner Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    55,887
    Likes Received:
    18,019
    Fav Celtic Player:
    Current: Griffiths, All time: Moravcik
    Fav Celtic Song:
    YNWA
    Your first sentence makes no sense in the context of your question, as you have to assume you wouldn't know his crime. Once the crime is known, no sensible perform would claim he was fit for mixing with the public.

    Rehabilitation, in the context of prisoners, aims to prevent the dehumanisation of people who are in jail, thus aiming to prevent them re-offending. While there will always be an argument that some prisoners are beyond rehabilitation, and some crimes don't deserve the chance to be rehabilitated, there is a body of evidence that supports the view that rehabilitation of prisoners works.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people

    https://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12?r=US&IR=T

    https://www.ncjrs.gov/app/abstractdb/AbstractDBDetails.aspx?id=178675

    https://www.pri.org/stories/2015-04-15/finlands-open-prisons-inmates-have-keys
     
    Ciaran_67 and gully1916 like this.
  2. SUMMER TIME Gold Member Gold Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2009
    Messages:
    23,430
    Likes Received:
    5,593
    Is there any justice in rehabilitation?

    If someone murders/rapes one of your family, is it good enough to know they possibly won’t do it again.

    It’s the victims who we should be helping more.
     
    cidermaster, Keano88 and Papa Lazarou like this.
  3. Gyp Rosetti Gold Member Gold Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2010
    Messages:
    45,319
    Likes Received:
    26,960
    Location:
    Govan
    Fav Celtic Player:
    Rogic
    Fav Celtic Song:
    Celtic symphony
    Maajid Nawaz as much as I don’t always agree with all his views seems to have turned himself around.
     
    KRS-1888 likes this.
  4. Ron Swanson 2 x BOTB winner Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    55,887
    Likes Received:
    18,019
    Fav Celtic Player:
    Current: Griffiths, All time: Moravcik
    Fav Celtic Song:
    YNWA
    I can see your point here but surely it’s better that, once they’ve served their sentence, they don’t create more victims. The justice is served when the sentence verdict is given, then completed, legally. Aiming to ensure less criminals re-offend is a worthwhile exercise. Less crime, a better society (in theory).

    I totally understand why victims or families of victims wouldn’t be forgiving and they also deserve support.
     
    StPauli1916 likes this.
  5. celtic warrior

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2007
    Messages:
    8,687
    Likes Received:
    2,301
    It's a tough one really.

    My naive uneducated view is, perhaps if you've committed a terrorist attack, premeditated murder, molesting children as examples then you can rot in jail for all eternity.

    Think the trouble we have how we'd house them all and try and keep them away from those they could radicalise or manipulate somehow.

    I dunno.
     
  6. Ciaran_67

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2013
    Messages:
    4,501
    Likes Received:
    899
    Location:
    Glasgow
    Fav Celtic Player:
    Jan Venegoor of Hessilink
    The most basic comparator you can look at is the USA and Norway.

    The USA is arguably the most punishment driven, developed country in the world with massive incarceration rates and capital punishment. It certainly doesn’t act as a deterrent as crime levels there are among the highest in the world and it includes people going around and shooting up schools. As well as that, their recidivism (reoffending) rate is also among the highest in the world.

    Compare that to Norway where a rehabilitation-intensive system has lead to the lowest reoffending rates in the world. Moreover, this “holiday camp” rhetoric has not meant increased crime in Norway whatsoever.

    I get that the Justice system is one of the most emotive things in the world. We always put ourselves in the victims/family of victims shoes and I completely understand that.

    I think what needs to be evaluated is what, in reality, is the purpose of prisons?
     
  7. Ron Swanson 2 x BOTB winner Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    55,887
    Likes Received:
    18,019
    Fav Celtic Player:
    Current: Griffiths, All time: Moravcik
    Fav Celtic Song:
    YNWA
    The US prison system has a lot of problems due to how profitable private prisons are there. Having more people in jail, and having prisoners completing longer sentences, means more money for the prison owners. There’s little to no desire to rehabilitate prisoners there, hence the high reoffending rate. Recently read this, which explains more.

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-p...es-big-business-or-a-new-form-of-slavery/8289
     
  8. Ron Swanson 2 x BOTB winner Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    55,887
    Likes Received:
    18,019
    Fav Celtic Player:
    Current: Griffiths, All time: Moravcik
    Fav Celtic Song:
    YNWA
    For anyone interested, this is a good documentary on the US prison system, in comparison with Norway’s.

     
  9. The Prof Administrator Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2010
    Messages:
    52,640
    Likes Received:
    18,879
    Location:
    Glasgow
    Fav Celtic Player:
    Kris Ajer


    Agree with a lot of the points you have made, but just as an example in this particular case, the guy didn't even serve half of his original sentence, also he was released with a tag which is totally useless in the case of a dangerous person seeking to harm others.

    We often here that the person was flying under the radar, but in this case they actually had the guy behind bars because they knew he was dangerous, but decided he was no longer a danger and let him our early, it's hard one for the families of the victims to take.

    I fully agree with the points about rehabilitation for certain prisoners, i think there are crimes that a person can come back from, but not in the case of those who commit the most heinous crimes.
     
  10. Ron Swanson 2 x BOTB winner Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    55,887
    Likes Received:
    18,019
    Fav Celtic Player:
    Current: Griffiths, All time: Moravcik
    Fav Celtic Song:
    YNWA
    The problem with the London bridge attack is that from 2008-2012, there was a change in criminal justice laws in England & Wales, that meant that offenders such as the bridge attacker, were automatically released half way through their sentence, without the need for a parole board.
     
  11. jocksteinupper

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2015
    Messages:
    5,634
    Likes Received:
    3,177
    Location:
    N Ayrshire
    Fav Celtic Player:
    Henke
    Fav Celtic Song:
    Willy Maley
    This is not just those with a criminal record though!! The social care system has been buckling for years through neglect over various governments and it doesn't really need my wife who works in Pharmacy to tell me the amount of lunatics out there who are a danger to themselves and the general public is scary!!! I know it needs talked about now but this scoring among them * sickens me to the core!!

    ps- i only caught about 2 mins of the ITV debate last night beofre i went out and i didn't realise our law is different up here where the release isn't automatic and must go to a board. Did i hear her right?? That sounds like a common sense thing to do straight away or have they already done it in England or is that what Bojo is banging on about because i can't really be bothered listening to anything that * says!!!
     
  12. tarboltontim We have nothing to lose but our chains. Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2010
    Messages:
    1,621
    Likes Received:
    1,980
    Location:
    Middle of 1690, Ayrshire
    Fav Celtic Player:
    John Clark
    Fav Celtic Song:
    Willie Maley
    You did hear her right:
    https://news.gov.scot/news/end-to-automatic-prison-release
     
    jocksteinupper likes this.
  13. leeso-ardoyne

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Messages:
    3,683
    Likes Received:
    1,344
    Coming from.a place where we hated the sight of shot to kill but if one is running about stabbing innocent people to death and wearing a bomb vest, blow that * head off. No call for slashing innocent people to death. I do understand the Mayhew Britain and other countries are doing to the middle East but ffs, no need to go about killing innocent people like that. He deserves to die!
     
  14. cidermaster Gold Member Gold Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2014
    Messages:
    15,676
    Likes Received:
    8,209
    Location:
    North Wales
    Fav Celtic Player:
    Henrik Larsson
    Fav Celtic Song:
    That Depeche Mode when we score!!
    So if this London attacker had survived what sentence does everyone think he should should have got??

    Also if had survived would it not be the perfect time to have a sensible debate on the Death Penalty??
     
  15. Fuck the Tories! Gold Member Gold Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2017
    Messages:
    7,437
    Likes Received:
    6,252
    No.
     
    Johniebhoy. and Whoflungdung like this.
  16. angusceltic67

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2012
    Messages:
    10,204
    Likes Received:
    2,017
    Location:
    Eire
    This open letter from two years ago remains relevant:


    Terrorist acts on British soil have been committed by people revealed to have been not only known but actively supported by British intelligence agencies. They were supported in carrying out acts of violence in other countries, including Libya and Syria, because it was in accordance with UK foreign policy objectives. Those objectives themselves were highly questionable, and the methods still more so. Meanwhile, we have started to learn – and at a bitter cost to those killed or injured, and their friends and families – what goes around comes around. What went around was not fair or deserved in Libya or Syria, and it is cruelly arbitrary for lives to be lost or terribly changed in our country too.

    Cont...........https://timhayward.wordpress.com/20...e-policies-the-need-for-better-public-debate/


    .
     
  17. Tim-Time 1888 Winner UEFA Champs League Last 16 prediction comp Gold Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2012
    Messages:
    27,054
    Likes Received:
    5,802
    Location:
    North East, Scotland
    Fav Celtic Player:
    Enrico Annoni
    Fav Celtic Song:
    Hail Hail

    Life.
    Yes, for cases like this - premeditated and with the sole intention of killing and maiming as many people as possible - the option of a death penalty shouldn't be ruled out imo. Although in cases like this that also sets some challenges that would need to be considered.
     
    cidermaster likes this.
  18. Seán Mac D Gold Member Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    12,463
    Likes Received:
    20,813
    The death penalty throws up far more problems than it solves in my opinion.

    Wrongful convictions, expensive litigation through retrials, a lack of any evidence that it has any appreciable impact on crime reduction.

    I guess it's where you sit on the punishment v rehabilitation debate but as an example Norway's crime statistics: homicide rates, mass shootings & reoffending rates are all much lower than America who have the death penalty.
     
    StPauli1916 likes this.
  19. StPauli1916 Gold Member Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2012
    Messages:
    46,719
    Likes Received:
    15,393
    Location:
    People's Republic of North Yorkshire
    Fav Celtic Player:
    Oliver Tebilly
    Fav Celtic Song:
    George and Pop
    No.
     
    kinglenny and bagforlife like this.
  20. Ron Swanson 2 x BOTB winner Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    55,887
    Likes Received:
    18,019
    Fav Celtic Player:
    Current: Griffiths, All time: Moravcik
    Fav Celtic Song:
    YNWA
    1. Death penalty cannot be reversed. In the case of the wrong judgement being made (as has happened), one life wrongly taken is one life too many. It puts innocent lives at risk, a state should do everything it can to prevent that from happening.

    2. It doesn't deter criminals. There is no credible evidence it prevents crime:
    Fact check: No proof the death penalty prevents crime

    3. There is no humane way to kill. The act of killing another person is morally wrong.

    4. Many countries make executions public, which makes it almost sport like. This makes a spectacle of the death and happens live in countries such as Iran and the USA. My opinion that anyone who wants to watch another human die needs to seek help.

    5. The majority of countries in the world have no abolished the death penalty (106 of them, out of 195), with this number set to increase.

    6. Death is a release from punishment, a release from suffering, a release from a life of regret and reflection.

    7. There is a better alternative, life without parole.

    8. The death penalty isn't cheaper, than a life sentence.

    9. The death penalty does nothing to help the pain suffered by victims or victims' families. The pain or grief doesn't magically disappear with the stopping of someone's pulse. In fact, the lengthy legal process that precedes an execution often causes a lot of unnecessary anxiety, stress, and pain for the victims' families, having to re-live the horror and re-open the old wound again and again, especially when the legal process can take years upon years. The money spent on the costly death penalty procedure would be far better utilised for specialist counselling and other types of assistance, or put towards funding that helps to make communities safer.

    10. The death penalty in the US is a random lottery. Less than 1% of the ~17,000 homicides committed in the US each year are sentenced to the death penalty. That isn't consistent justice, nor would the death penalty for all 17,000 be cost sensible.

    11. The death penalty doesn't make the world a safer place, evidence strongly suggests the opposite is true. Over a period of 20 years, states that do not have the death penalty have consistently have lower than average homicide rates, while states with the death penalty have consistently had higher than average homicide rates. Brutalization theory suggests that the presence of capital punishment creates a vicious circle.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019