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Flares and their continued use

Discussion in 'Celtic Chat' started by Seán Mac D, Feb 26, 2015.

Discuss Flares and their continued use in the Celtic Chat area at TalkCeltic.net.

  1. daschoo

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    The fair play award after Seville has turned out to be a burden for us. Too many folk concerned about "our reputation" and being "The Greatest Fans In The World"
     
  2. Tim-Time 1888 Always look on the bright side of Life Gold Member

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    My mistake sorry mate. I am specifically talking about the use of flares in this thread.
     
  3. Tim-Time 1888 Always look on the bright side of Life Gold Member

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    We are in a UEFA tournament and they will decide on the rules. We have a choice we play by their rules or do not enter their tournament simple.

    I have already said it seems we are getting targeted instead of "bigger" clubs for the use of flares, however we will not win a "this is justified" argument with UEFA, so using that as some kind of argument to continue using flares is a non-starter.

    Yes it costs money to put on a display that WE all benefit from on trophy day and DO NOT GET FINED FOR DOING whereas the "display" the other night will see us getting another avoidable fine (hopefully that will be all it is as).
     
  4. Rossenspeil

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    Have to admit I love them, crackin site, but we've been told not to do it .. and we have .. which is a bit daft.
     
  5. Random Review

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    Me personally I can see both sides of the flare argument and on the whole (as I said above) I just don't think they are worth fighting for (unlike songs, banners, etc), so we don't disagree that much. I just think some people should maybe think twice before dismissing as morons people (Celtic fans) whose judgement on the matter differs from theirs (and, as it happens, mine).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2015
  6. Random Review

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    UEFA rules are hypocritical, though, I don't see why you give them so much respect. Now I admit that I don't personally think flares are worth all the trouble, fines, etc that they bring on the club; but I still respect those who see it differently.

    When we get fined for political songs, banners or flags by the same organisation that is happy to have its own political displays (e.g. Mandela) or (irony overload given their support for anti-Apartheid politician Mandela!) enforces the rules inconsistently (Israeli flag is fine; Palestinian flag is "political"), then this argument you make above about it being UEFA's tournament and therefore we should abide by their rules is clearly false. Maybe it is also wrong for flares. Maybe there's a good reason you and I aren't aware of why flares are important.

    The flare thing is more difficult, I agree, because (unlike with political censorship of our support) reasonable Celtic fans can and do disagree on whether we should be allowed to use flares; but please let's not muddy the waters by bringing the views of UEFA into the debate (except inasmuch as you, like me, don't think the fines are worth it in the case of flares).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2015
  7. buchanbhoy

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    Flares are banned for a reason guys due to health and safety etc .
    What happens when somebody gets seriously hurt by a flare .
    Thankfully the chances of putting the stadium on fire are relatively low nowadays .
    Yes it looks cool as * to set the flares off in evening games but it is banned and costing our club money when will these people wise up ? When we are playing European games behind closed doors ?
    Then its to late guys .
     
  8. Biggie Smalls

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    Not too bothered about people using them but its quite selfish. I've had a flare let of near me a few times and its * annoying, me and everyone else around me never wanted a flare off so that * should have known better.
     
  9. Tim-Time 1888 Always look on the bright side of Life Gold Member

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    Going round in circles here and I am getting rather tired of it.
    I never said I placed much store in UEFA's rules, HOWEVER its their tournament and if we want to play in it we need to abide by their rules. very simple.
    Also I'm not trying to muddy any waters, as Its not me who is using political chanting/singing to try and demonstrate a point.

    Finally those who see it differently are a tiny minority, so why should they do something that results in the Club getting totally unnecessary and avoidable fines. Are they really trying to say they can not manage to support the team without a glorified sparkler, seriously.
     
  10. Random Review

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    Well I'm sorry you're getting tired of it, but it's not simple at all. There is a moral issue and a practical issue and you keep conflating the two, that's why we are going round in circles.

    I was using political singing to try and clarify the distinction between the moral and practical issues, because it is much clearer in that case than it is with flares. I never intended to imply that it had any bearing to do with whether we should be allowed flares or not; you, on the other hand, are implying that whether UEFA fine us or not is relevant to whether we should be allowed flares.

    So my point is this: firstly there is the moral issue of whether we should be allowed flares. This is something that Celtic fans should decide, not UEFA. Secondly there is the practical issue of whether the battle is worth fighting in the face of UEFA pressure, again something that should be decided by Celtic fans.

    When you depict it as a simple situation (UEFA's competition therefore we must abide by their rules), I despair a little bit. "Their" competition (and all the money these people milk from it) would be nothing without the clubs and the fans.
     
  11. SpringburnBhoy

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    Seen it many times,as the thrower would try to get away the finger pointing would follow him,until the polis got the *.
    Back then it was common for children to be at ground level for a better view,and it was not uncommon for a Lanny fueled * to land his missle in or around that area,hence the finger pointing.
     
  12. SpringburnBhoy

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    In a nutshell.
     
  13. Tim-Time 1888 Always look on the bright side of Life Gold Member

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    No, there is no moral issue here to be discussed at all. If there was then no-one would likely enter into UEFA's tournament however we are not discussing the morals of UEFA, as you are well aware. This whole thread is about FLARES being used.

    So, as I said, the choice is simple we are in their tournament and need to follow their rules (if you/we don't like that I'm afraid that's just tough) the only way to avoid these rules is to not enter their tournament and in the real world that is not going to happen.

    You can despair all you wish however the simple fact is, We as a Club want to play in THEIR tournament, we want the prestige and the money. We could, as you seem to think, let the Celtic support decide by having a ballot but I think we both know that the result would be a massive majority in favour of entering their (UEFA) tournament.

    In my opinion, while you say I am oversimplifying the whole thing, you are overthinking it, being honest mate.
    I try to just keep issues separate and not conflate them :86:
     
  14. Random Review

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    That's kind of my point, mate. You were the one that brought UEFA into this when you said that it was all very simple, that it was UEFA's competition and so we should abide by their rules, e.g. just below.

    If everyone took this attitude, we'd still have a monarch running our country and never have made any progress. Of course you have to pick your battles, you can't constantly rebel against every unjust rule, which is why I think the support as a whole need to decide if the issue of flares is justified and (if it is) if it is worth fighting for. Like you, I suspect the answer is "no" for the first and am pretty sure it is "no" for the second. I just don't think Celtic fans who disagree are automatically morons.

    I think you have misunderstood, mate: I don't despair at the situation; I despair at the attitude among some people that just accepts the situation. At the end of the day, UEFA represent clubs and clubs would be nothing without fans. These are our tournaments just as much as UEFA's. As for ballots, etc, you are being very unfair there. I never suggested anything so ridiculous. The Celtic support has always decided amongst itself in exchanges (of opinions, facts and occasionally blows) in pubs, homes and nowadays sites like these and will continue to do so.

    Well we see the matter of it being UEFA's tournament quite differently TBH. They need the clubs as much as the clubs need them. I think there is a moral issue, by the way: I'm not in favour of just rolling over and accepting every single hypocritical rule UEFA want to impose. However it is clear we don't agree on this either. Your whole attitude seems to be one of "it's their ball so we have to play what they want".

    I am sorry to keep labouring these points. I know it is tedious for you and possibly also tedious for others to read. I personally won't lose any sleep if flares disappear from football. It's just that if they do disappear, it mustn't be for the reasons you give because, while I am aware that they are two separate issues, the exact same (IMO flawed) arguments you give can be (and have been) used for far more important issues, such as banning political expression. This stuff is important.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 2, 2015
  15. Soul Rebel

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    I dont see political singing and using flares as at all comparable. I think you're seriously over complicating the issue Random. Political singing isn't particularly harmful to a persons health and neither does it come with a fire risk for instance.
     
  16. Tim-Time 1888 Always look on the bright side of Life Gold Member

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    I cant manage to quote each of your individual paragraphs not sure what I'm not doing correctly :52: Will address them 1-5.

    1/ Of course UEFA have been brought into this, as they will be the ones who will likely fine us again. You brought up the morals of UEFA not me. I have (since we started posting about this) agreed with you, that UEFA's morals leave a lot to be desired however that is not what the thread was about.

    2/ Comparing UEFA's rules to the constitutional debate is a bit of a stretch and is just ,imo, proving that you are indeed overcomplicating this whole issue.
    While you are entitled to believe a Celtic fan who sparks up a flare at a game, fully knowing that the Club will doubtless be fined again, is not a moron, we will have to agree to disagree. As I certainly believe it is, being kind here, the act of a moron.

    3/ Me saying about a ballot was no more ridiculous than you thinking should Celtic fans agree flares are fine that somehow UEFA will allow us to dictate to them on this issue. Yes UEFA would be nothing without the clubs however they certainly would not listen to our Club only and would ignore us.

    4/ Boil it all down and it is their tournament, so if we want to play in it then we have to accept they don't allow/want us to set of flares.
    There is/appears to be a debate to be had about the lack of action taken towards over clubs fans using flares but that's not the case here I'm concerned with my Club only.

    5/ Hey mate if others find it tedious they can choose to not read it :icon_mrgreen:
    I honestly believe you are overthinking this and need to separate a minor thing , flares, with something that has further reaching consequences.

    As I said, boil it all down and while you are right they would be nothing without the fans/clubs, on this issue its their "tournament" and we want to be in it. So for that reason more than anything else lets just stop the * flares before they get severely * off with us and impose a more severe punishment (its hopefully not too late).
     
  17. Roy's Keane

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    I honestly think getting a fine for a flare is like getting a parking ticket, or a spot fine for idling.

    If you get caught illegally parking your car 10 times, you get ten parking tickets to pay. On the 5th time you won't go to court, and the 10th time you won't go to jail.

    While I understand the fines may increase as per way of a deterrent, I don't see any evidence that continued breach of this rule will end an anything severe (for example stadium closures.)

    Is their any evidence of this happening (eventual stadium closures due to flares)?

    (I'd caveat all this by stating I have no idea how getting numerous parking tickets work, but I hope you get the idea :p)
     
  18. Millerntor

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    See if it was a mass pyro show as seen around Europe often, or flares being thrown on the the pitch causing games to be stopped, then fair enough you could make a case for that to be punished, but one piddly wee flare up in the gods - absolute joke from UEFA. It's clear that we, and some others, are being singled out by UEFA and high time our club publically made reference to this rather than meekly accept it.
     
  19. Sean Daleer Free Palestine Gold Member

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    Or we, you know, could stop * using them.

    Flares is not a fight we , or the club, should be concerning ourselves with.

    You really think if the club went to UEFA and said "it's pyoor no fair big man, aw they other teams use mair flares than we dae", that UEFA are going to turn around and say "aye yer right wee barra, carry on then"?

    Just * knock it on the head and use our energy for fighting more important matters like the assault on our heritage.
     
  20. Millerntor

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    Of course UEFA aren't. The point is, that we are now being clearly signaled out given that clubs each UEFA week use considerably more pyro than one piddly wee flare and emerge unscathed. I don't see this as being acceptable and would like the club to press on this - why is this the case, why the inconsistency, what's the agenda at play here and from whom?

    But then, we meekly accepted the last UEFA fine without one utterance over the provactive reactions of the Zagreb police and we meekly accepted the highly dubious fine over 'illicit chanting' so we do know where we stand when it comes to UEFA and those that run the club.