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Do we need to adjust our ambitions in Europe?

Discussion in 'Celtic Chat' started by Jeremie Frimpong, Dec 6, 2017.

Discuss Do we need to adjust our ambitions in Europe? in the Celtic Chat area at TalkCeltic.net.

  1. Jeremie Frimpong

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    Here is how European Cup winners, with an average attendance of over 30,000, from outside the top four leagues have done or are doing in Europe this season:
    • Ajax were knocked out of the Champions League at the third qualifying round by Nice (3-3 agg.) and were knocked out of the Europa League at the play-off round by Rosenborg (4-2 agg.)
    • Benfica finished bottom of their Champions League group (Manchester United, Basel, CSKA) with 0 points as Pot 1 seeds.
    • Feyenoord finished bottom of their Champions League group (Shakhtar Donetsk, Manchester City, Napoli) with 3 points as Pot 4 seeds.
    • Olympique de Marseille will finish second or third in their Europa League group (Red Bull Salzburg, Vitória de Guimarães, Konyaspor) with 7-10 points as Pot 2 seeds.
    • Porto finished second in their Champions League group (Monaco, Beşiktaş, RB Leipzig) with 10 points as Pot 2 seeds.
    • PSV were knocked out of the Europa League at the third qualifying round by Osijek (2-0 agg.)
    It’s worth noting that most, if not all, of those clubs are wealthier than Celtic.

    I think we all have an idea in our heads where Celtic should be in European football, even if we can’t quite articulate it, but, perhaps, the landscape is shifting again, to the point where Celtic and the clubs above can’t even realistically entertain hopes of being regulars in the early knockout rounds of the Champions League.

    Do we, then, have to adjust our ambitions on the European stage, particularly with an extra round qualifying round to navigate from next season onwards?

    I think we still have plenty of room for growth at European level, but I’m no longer sure what the natural ceiling is for Ajax, Benfica, Celtic, et al. - I have a feeling it is changing.

    (This thread is not intended to excuse poor performances during recent European campaigns.)
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  2. Callum McGregor The Captain Gold Member

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    Realistic expectations would be to qualify for the CL group stages at least 50% of the time (once every two seasons).
     
  3. JC Anton Get yer, hats, scarfs badges & tapes

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    Obtaining CL football is the goal and an achievement..

    Finishing 3rd in our group was more realistic this season than last, for two reasons BR was new to the club and German opposition is generally tougher than Belgian..

    There's no reason why we can't make ourselves a real handfull in the CL but you need a favourable draw, luck and to be play out of your skin to get out of the group.

    So our goal is realistic, qualify for the CL and then try and compete as best we can. There is something fundamentally wrong though, with striving so hard to make a competition you have no chance of winning..
     
  4. McGrory1888

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    It’s a valid point and comparison to make. I sat watching the BT Sport goal show tonight and looking through the group tables and it kind of dawned that we actually done not bad compared to a lot of financially stronger clubs. We probably have the fourth smallest budget in this year’s group stage (Apoel, Qarabag and Maribor), yet we had more or as many points in the groups as nine of the 31 other teams. When you consider we had two of the best four or five teams on the planet in our group, it’s not all doom and gloom.

    Anderlecht were Europa League quarter finalists last season and it even took the eventual winners extra time to knock them out. We effectively beat them 3-1 over a two legged tie.

    Don’t get me wrong, I was/am gutted with last night’s performance but we only lost one nil to an extremely unlucky goal. If you stop and imagine for a second that the games were reversed and we’d lost 1-0 away in matchday two then hammered Anderlecht 3-0 last night, we’d all be buzzing!

    At the end of the day, we’d all have settled for third as soon as the draw was made. We got there, now let’s enjoy it.
     
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  5. PaulM1888 Moderator Moderator Gold Member

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    Huns spent years climbing back to the Scottish Premiership :fear:
     
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  6. JC Anton Get yer, hats, scarfs badges & tapes

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    Dortmund didn't win a game either must be a first for them..
     
  7. Markybhoy

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    What ARE our expectations in Europe? I suspect you'll find a wide range of differing expectations within the Celtic support and even within this forum.

    Personally, given that we have access to the 'Champions route', I expect us to qualify for the Champions League group stage. Once we're there, all bets are off. I don't expect us to win any game in the group stage these days. I just write off the matches against Barca, PSG, Bayern etc as defeats and hope for the best in the others.
     
  8. Tim-Time 1888 Always look on the bright side of Life Gold Member

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    Qualification for the CL groups is success.
    Once we do that we need to try for third place.
    Should we not qualify for the CL we need to at least qualify for the EL and see how that pans out.
     
  9. gengar

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    I don't think that expecting to qualify for CL GS every season is unreasonable. It will become a bit harder starting next year (with only 4 champions route spots available), but it should be the expectation. In two-legged qualification ties anything can happen, but losing to the Maribors/Astanas/Rijekas of the world should be the exception.
     
  10. andybhoy94 Gold Member Gold Member

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    Should be looking at qualifying every season for champions league afterwards it's just the luck of the draw and aiming for third but should be looking to be as competitive as possible and at least improving the home form.
     
  11. packybhoy Administrator Administrator Gold Member

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    CL qualification into group stage. A third place finish is realistically the best we can expect these days. But we expect our teams to play as they did against City or Munich. With pride and passion.
    Not to roll over for average teams at or below our level.
     
  12. kyndig

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    For me, I want last 16 but this is luck of the draw, qualify for groups every season, at minimum 7 points 2 home wins and a draw at home, under WGS we had a good home record terrible away record, but the three wins at home put us into a strong position to get last 16.
     
  13. Jeremie Frimpong

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    With our resources, I think that qualification for the Champions League in three out of five seasons is a reasonable expectation and that qualification for the Champions League in four out of five seasons is a reasonable aim.

    Once there, I think that being competitive in every game that we play is a reasonable expectation and that securing European football after Christmas in half of our campaigns (three to four times a decade) is a reasonable aim.
     
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  14. Sno'sLeftFoot

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    CL group stages is the aim every season. So many variables in the process of doing that - international tournaments, injuries, how well the draw comes out for us. But we should always be aiming for it.

    If we don't make it, then playing in the EL is a must and ideally progression past the groups. Again, once your in the knock out stages as we now know very well, the quality of teams increases by quite a bit, so would be looking to go as far as possible pending favourable draws.

    So overall, while it can't really be labelled an "expectation", I'd be hopeful and optimistic of CL group stages at the beginning of each season.

    If we're talking minimum expectations, then European football, EL at the very least, group stage football is the requirement and EL football at least post Christmas.
     
  15. ourdaywillcome! Gold Member Gold Member

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    Good points, but I don't give a * what other clubs are doing.

    We shouldn't be getting whooped by 7 at home and beaten by Anderlecht at home. Soured the campaign for me.
     
  16. CalgaryBhoy

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    CL group stages. If we get a favourable group, we aim for the last 16. Teams like Basel have done it against CSKA and Benfica, it can be done. If we get a group of death like we have both draws under Rodgers, I think you need to aim for a EL spot.

    *Also show up at home. I don't care if PSG spend £300 million in one summer, we need to compete at home. Shouldn't be getting slapped by Monchengladbach and Anderlecht at home either.
     
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  17. freitassen

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    Sure, then there are teams like Maribor, APOEL and Qarabag not * themselves and losing every single against the top seed in their group by 5+ goals.

    My aim would be better than these vastly inferior teams. That would mean qualifying to the group stages most of the time and even if not progressing further, finishing with 0 points in last place, looking like a professional side against all teams and putting up a good fight in at least half of those games. 12-1 is surely an horrible aggregate result, but the most important would be not looking like it's a game of men against boys.

    As I said in other post, the problem is we have only like 4 matches per season where we can really measure the ability of our team. The SPFL teams and the first two qualifying round opponents are crap. The seeds 1 and 2 are unbeatable. There is only the seed 3 of the group stage and the last qualifying round opponent that is usually more or less at our level. I know it's a * of a task for a manager to have a good grasp of how good their players are in such situation.
     
  18. Slater67

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    We never really got whooped by 7 at home mate , thought agree 5 is still poor , a genuinely think PSG and Bayern are on a par and Brendan got it spot on against Bayern at home, eventually lost but played like a champions league team, didn't sit back and let them play football, got in their faces from the off and even after losing daft preventable goal we didn't change and they were uncomfortable for most of the match, did opposite against PSG
     
  19. ourdaywillcome! Gold Member Gold Member

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    5 at home, 7 away. Got mixed up there. *, regardless.

    Bayern at home was a high point despite defeat, totally ruined by the proceeding games.

    0-3 at Anderlecht of course was a high point, but it lulled us into believing we were better than we are. 3 gift goals, shambolic defending, a team in disarray and we capitalised.

    The reverse fixture is probably the more accurate gauge of where the two clubs are, it's pretty even.

    Investment is needed, changes are needed and management have to figure out how to put it all together, if we are to ever compete at the top table. We aren't good enough, simple as.
     
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  20. Slater67

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    Nah you're right mate, even when we scored after a minute in Paris you still knew what was going to happen, with O'Neill s teams with the likes of mjallby, balde big valgaeren and a fast right back like Agathe you genuinely believed If you got an away goal you stood a chance no matter the opposition, none of this trying to play out from the back, it would be no nonsense defending, play it to guys like Thompson, Petrov , moravcik guys that could run and play football, even up front guys like Sutton, Larsson and Hartson could hold onto it for long stages,
     
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